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Airlines plucking from the corporate ranks

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Airlines plucking from the corporate ranks

Old 11-25-2017, 05:58 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Lucky8888 View Post
Agreed. It's almost always less expensive to do whatever it takes to retain a highly qualified individual than it is to recruit a new person. It's just good business sense.
I think a lot of pilots are insecure, concerned about their relationship with the leadership. It’s a two-way street, have confidence in your work and leaders need to promote loyalty by returning respect and coaching. I never worried about what the boss thought-did my best and stood behind my work always.

And way too much emphasis on money—there’s much more to life than next week’s bank deposit. Respect, giving responsibility, personal growth, interesting environment mean a lot when it comes to employment.

GF
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:42 PM
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I just flew with an FO that came from corporate. He really liked his job, but was on call 24/7 indefinitely, and all of his days off were days in the past week or so that they didn't use him to fly...he was notified of his days off after they occurred.

He is liking the air carrier operation where I am a lot better, overall.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:39 AM
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Those operations will have to adjust, but airlines were once that way. The EAL contract was 10 days off, the remaining days for reserves were 24/7. I got a call at 2am for an 0630 show time once. My corporate ops had 8 hard days off, 3 weeks vacation plus 5 personal days that could be used almost at will. If the planes were gone, no on-call. With 4-5 pilots per plane, being on call was rare. It wasn’t unusual to have most of a month off.

Different strokes for different folks. Horses for Courses.

GF
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
I think a lot of pilots are insecure, concerned about their relationship with the leadership. It’s a two-way street, have confidence in your work and leaders need to promote loyalty by returning respect and coaching. I never worried about what the boss thought-did my best and stood behind my work always.

And way too much emphasis on money—there’s much more to life than next week’s bank deposit. Respect, giving responsibility, personal growth, interesting environment mean a lot when it comes to employment.

GF
I agree with the insecurity of pilots aspect. Many pilots got scared of losing their job in the downturn and unlike the airlines the guy in the back can fire you in one second. Pilots are also nervous to jump from one corporate outfit to another in a lot of cases because they don't want to fall for the grass is greener deal. On the other hand most operators absolutely will not change until they have to. If you got a flight department with 6 pilots and nobody is willing to quit why change anything?

Now on to your second paragraph I will agree and disagree. First off anyone who says it's not about the money it is about the money. I mean ALL about the money and the other stuff you mentioned.

People are tired in the corporate world of being on call 24/7/365. Are you showing your pilots respect by working them like that No. And nobody is gonna quit a job where they get along with their owners for 2 more days off a month or a couple grand.

But buddy believe me when you got guys out there that are Hawker captains making 100,000, or a Citation X captain making 110,000 and you tell them that hey not only will you make the same amount with brand X airline on day 1 in 3 short years you will make twice as much. And oh yea "we respect you so much" unlike your previous employer (who was a great guy) you don't even have to work half the month. We will give you 401k, good medical and dental for your family, no more on call 24/7/365, loss of license, KCM, travel benifits and the list goes on and on and on.

That my friend is when it becomes about the money, all about the money. And all that other stuff you mentioned. Nobody is gonna quit over a 5,000 a year raise. But believe this, virtually everybody is gonna quit for double the money and the mountain of other perks that 98% of biz jet operators do not offer.

There are a few operators seeing this and getting ahead of the game. Those are the ones that never hire anyway because they always been at the top and will remain so.

The rest are going to have to do some serious soul searching on exactly how much they "respect" their flight crews and that boils down to money. Money to put in their 401k. Money to hire more pilots so they aren't on call 24/7/365. Money for good healthcare. Money to pay them more, way more, like the airlines. Money for good training, etc, etc, etc. So you see in one way or another it does all boil down to money.
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:45 AM
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One question for everyone. Maybe two

Should bizjet pilots make more money than airline pilots? Why or why not?
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Old 11-26-2017, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by billsaw View Post
One question for everyone. Maybe two

Should bizjet pilots make more money than airline pilots? Why or why not?
Maybe? Maybe not? This exercise is a waste of time. I used to ask myself the same thing but then I realized it would never be the case so I left corporate.
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by billsaw View Post
One question for everyone. Maybe two

Should bizjet pilots make more money than airline pilots? Why or why not?
They should make what they can negotiate for and what the company willing to pay.

Yes, with the gulf between airlines and EVERY other flying job, 95% will leave (fill in the blank, mil, regional, corporate, ag, whatever flying) ASSUMING they get offers. News Flash: many apply, not all get hired. So, if you get hired at a legacy/major, like the work, it’s indeed the best career as a pilot. No. Argument. There. If you don’t hit that lottery, you, Sir, are gonna be flying something else.

I did EAL for 5 years, I’d give up a lot of money to not be as bored which is why I stayed military and then flew corporate. I retired well off, so it’s possible w/o being an airline pilot,, despite rumors to the contrary.

GF
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Old 11-26-2017, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
News Flash: many apply, not all get hired.
GF
The thing is not all will need to get hired. Not even close to half. You take 10% (mind you these will be the major airline qualified experienced guys with 4,000+ hours not the FO's) and you just sent the business aviation pilot market into a tailspin.

With many flight departments already running bare bones (2 pilots per plane) there is no capacity to loose even a small percentage. Could you imagine if you went to 1 in 5 of the flight department in the US running anything Challenger and bigger and took just one experienced captain? Where are they gonna get the guy to replace him?

Which brings us to the FO's. Reports are it's even hard for the corporate operators to hire rookie FO's onto planes that only fly 150 hours a year. Why? Because all they want to do is get to 1,500 and get to the airlines. By the time they do that on 150 hour per year aircraft the hiring boom will be over and they will be at the bottom of a seniority list for 30 years. They aren't as stupid as we may think.

And just that mentality of I am outta here the first chance I get being so widespread should make operators and management companies really reevaluate the corporate pay structure. If the airlines start poaching captains and the FO's en mass have no intention of hanging around past 1,500 hours in a few years bizav will be cleaned out. A brain drain of sorts. Which is dangerous to all these billionaires and millionaires that value their health.

Every single flight department in the US needs to think long and hard about matching airline pay and QOL and they need to do it fast. I would not want to be a chief pilot of a flight department right now who's owners or HR have not or will not come to that realization. It's gonna be a miserable job.

And as far as that NBAA salary survey goes (which is what owners/HR seem to look at) isn't even good enough to wipe my *** with. Those people that produce that should be summarily fired. It will be really interesting to read next year to see what top pay is on large cabin aircraft now that it's basically public knowledge that some are paying big bucks. Before they just refused to publish the high paying stuff bringing the average down.


Two more questions if I were management that would be on my mind. How many guys in my flight department have their applications in with the airlines?
How many applications do I have from Delta, American, UPS etc pilots wanting to come work for me?
That should tell you all you need to know.
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Old 11-26-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Powderkeg View Post
Maybe? Maybe not? This exercise is a waste of time. I used to ask myself the same thing but then I realized it would never be the case so I left corporate.
This is not aimed at you. You just proved my point 100%.

That is the line of thinking that a lot of guys have. Biz jets will never pay more than airlines. Why not? And I get the whole round and round argument. But one thing I can promise every single pilot, chief pilot, and DO at every biz av operator. If you think your second rate to an airline pilot then you are, and you will always be paid as such. Time to sack up

Powderkeg is just one more guy lost to the airlines with none flowing the other way

One last note these guys running these big management companies for years have been dead set against having more than two pilots on a plane for the last decade keeping pilots QOL in the can. So even though the big guy at the "JA" company now has seen the light and now "knows" what he and the owners need to do it is people just like him that put himself in the mess they are just starting to enter.
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Old 11-26-2017, 04:15 PM
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Yea and No, billsaw,

Mid-80s, hiring was fast and furious everywhere, maybe ten legacies all hiring 60-100 a month. I grabbed the first offer from EAL in early ‘85. Guys were leaving HPN like crazy—G2, Falcons, Hawker drivers. Chief Pilots were wondering what hit ‘em. I made more in my second year as a Boeing F/E than as a Sabre 65 captain. Six years later, furloughs, EA and PAA when bust, loads of pilots on the street, all trying to get back their old jobs. It took years to unwind that cycle.

In ‘98, I was a senior ART in the Reserves, I thought we’d never keep a young pilot for more than a year or two to transition off probation. I thought maybe, just maybe, it’d would be worth going to UA. Then, 9/11 happened and I had all those same guys banging on the door to get back in the Reserves. Well, those ‘98 guys went thru a blood bath for a decade.

Yes, it’s an epic hiring cycle, but derailment is never far away. For all pilots. I’ve lived these roller coaster too many times to believe the sky is falling.

GF
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