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Making a schedule: QOL

Old 08-29-2018, 06:47 AM
  #11  
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Awesome post, billsaw! We went to 5/plane, had guaranteed days off and post-trip time off. In an international operation with high Ops tempo, 5 is just enough.

GF
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:21 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
Awesome post, billsaw! We went to 5/plane, had guaranteed days off and post-trip time off. In an international operation with high Ops tempo, 5 is just enough.

GF
Thanks. Having watched many friends go through this same story at many different operations it just becomes disheartening to watch. Especially since the same two basic scenarios play out over and over.

The real sad part is the operations with potential that lose their really good guys only to switch positions to late in the game and the flight departments go down the tubes big time. They end up replacing great guys with substandard ones in some cases at more than the good ones wanted to stay.

In the end it seems if they can't be talked into changing in 10-20 min you won't do it in 2 or 3 years until the good guys hit the door and the place falls apart. Hence my position on not wasting too much time on them. My buddies that got more money or better conditions did it in one meeting. The ones who didn't hung around for years trying to convince them with all the data to come up with either nothing or maybe some empty promises about what they "intend to do" only to quit mad at themselves for wasting so much time trying.

The reality now with the airlines these private and corporate flight departments are in for a real surprise. If they so much as blink in a year or so at a raise there won't be anyone around to hire at any price....
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Old 08-30-2018, 05:08 PM
  #13  
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I just had a few beers and wings with the guys that used to work for me and the new chief pilot. Operators are throwing stupid money around in the Northeast. A Global just got crewed at $260k+; but, I asked the kicker—how many pilots on a managed and chartered plane? Two. I then pointed out the potential QOL issues and the owner was buying pilot’s lives. Great money, being away or on-call 365, not worth it.

GF
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Old 08-30-2018, 05:30 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
I just had a few beers and wings with the guys that used to work for me and the new chief pilot. Operators are throwing stupid money around in the Northeast. A Global just got crewed at $260k+; but, I asked the kicker—how many pilots on a managed and chartered plane? Two. I then pointed out the potential QOL issues and the owner was buying pilot’s lives. Great money, being away or on-call 365, not worth it.

GF
What was his reaction when you told him (or implied) that a senior NB FO at a legacy could earn almost that much, but working just 12-15 days?

I'm afraid I kind of know, but I hope I'm wrong
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Old 08-30-2018, 06:18 PM
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This might surprise you, but guys that got kicked around at regionals, have kids going to college, bills to pay, taking 260-280k is good money and don’t want an airline job. They have their eyes open, know their options—it’s their choice. I know lots of guys flying large bizjets totally uninterested in the airlines. Horses for courses.



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Old 09-03-2018, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
I just had a few beers and wings with the guys that used to work for me and the new chief pilot. Operators are throwing stupid money around in the Northeast. A Global just got crewed at $260k+; but, I asked the kicker—how many pilots on a managed and chartered plane? Two. I then pointed out the potential QOL issues and the owner was buying pilot’s lives. Great money, being away or on-call 365, not worth it.

GF
Actually that kinda sucks. As recently as one year ago it was good but times are a changing. I have had several buddies hired both in the northeast and the west coast for almost that money on 4 pilot planes. When I say almost I mean 240k plus bonuses. This is all within the last 6-8 months. So 260k to be the property of someone is not good money at all.

Owners on these particular jets got tired of the turnover and substandard pilots the management company was getting and threw in the towel. Give me 4 guys and pay them was the owners edict. It's funny that the management companies try to drive down the cost and find the cheapest guys they can until the owners get ****ed and throw money at the problem.

It doesn't matter anyway at this point and I hear your comment about guys that have no interest in the airlines. Problem for owners that want to "own" you is there are not enough guys that "will never" go to the airlines to crew (captain) the biz jets. So they will either compete in the future or park em. It really is that simple.
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Old 09-03-2018, 02:37 AM
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Here is another look into the crystal ball straight from somebody calling the shots.

Management companies know there is a pilot shortage coming and the airlines are gonna take from them.

"Management" cannot and should not admit it generally speaking because then the pilots "will know" they are in the drivers seat. Not that they don't already but when and if management lets it out that there is a problem that's when pilots turn from whiners about stuff to demanding. Big difference.

They also know that crewing aircraft deeper only makes the problem worse. There are "X" number of business aircraft operating and "Y" number of pilots. The "Y" number is getting smaller for several reasons. The "X" number will grow with the economy. That in and of itself is a problem. Add to it the fact they have to start giving people a life and crewing the X's with more Y's and well you see the problem. There ain't enough Y's.

They know it but will not and should not admit it. So guys look for management to attempt to squeeze more out of you in the name of "helping" out as things get worse. The last thing they want to do is crew planes deeper. They would much rather throw a few dollars at you.

If you really want to fix the problem demand they hire more pilots for time off. The pay will follow and soon you will be making what the airline guys make with a life to boot. If you take the money you just drag it out longer.
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Old 09-03-2018, 04:41 PM
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billsaw,

I asked about QOL, didn’t get a definite answer as the conversation was second hand. 260-280 is pretty strong money IF it’s a 3 or 4 pilot operation with little or no chartering. At least, in my experience as a NE Chief Pilot, but times are rapidly changing. The pilots I know at private equity groups have mostly 2 weeks on and either 1 week off or 2 weeks off. One friend has had the summer off as they do an 8C check. Another has a 30 minute commute, flies, at most ten days a month for 275.

As has been said, there 10% great ones, probably 30% near-great and everything else. Gulfstream/Globals are the only deal likely to be decent, in my experience—stable owners, pre-planned schedules, no last minute calls. I did 12 years at one and had 3 last minute calls due to pilot family emergencies. They bailed me out a couple of times, so it balances out.

GF

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 09-03-2018 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:13 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by billsaw View Post
Actually that kinda sucks. As recently as one year ago it was good but times are a changing. I have had several buddies hired both in the northeast and the west coast for almost that money on 4 pilot planes. When I say almost I mean 240k plus bonuses. This is all within the last 6-8 months. So 260k to be the property of someone is not good money at all.

Owners on these particular jets got tired of the turnover and substandard pilots the management company was getting and threw in the towel. Give me 4 guys and pay them was the owners edict. It's funny that the management companies try to drive down the cost and find the cheapest guys they can until the owners get ****ed and throw money at the problem.

It doesn't matter anyway at this point and I hear your comment about guys that have no interest in the airlines. Problem for owners that want to "own" you is there are not enough guys that "will never" go to the airlines to crew (captain) the biz jets. So they will either compete in the future or park em. It really is that simple.
Exactly. Management company is the issue here with me too. Mentioned it to them 3 times in the past year of me being employed with this company. Great respect for the owner but its out of his hands and into the management company.

14 days PTO allowed, I put in for a request for 7 off in November and it gets kicked back to me that I can only do 4 days because of a trip booked. Told me I should have requested sooner. This was August when I requested it. I just dont get it and what PTO really means if you cant use it to plan something. We never get pop ups but also I will only be home for a totally of 6 days this month of September.

Seen a lot of guy get fed up and go to the airlines for the predictable lifestyle and schedule. Ive thought about it myself but I wouldn't have fun there I know it.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:59 AM
  #20  
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You might not have gotten his bid vacation depending on seniority, either. I actually found bidding vacation only to have it cancelled one of the worst aspects of airline flying. I agree he should have received his full vacation request. Maybe because my department was led by ex-mil guys where excepting wars leave was always granted, vacation was approved as requested 98% of the time. In rare cases, we’d negotiate a mutually acceptable deal or contract.

GF
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