Leave Major Airline for Corporate?
 

Hi, I'm new here . . . I have almost 12 years seniority with a major airline, and also have a Captain's bid with that airline. Unexpectedly, I may be offered an outstanding corporate job (through a pilot friend), flying a Bombadier Global Express. The corporate job salary & benefits will be approximately the same (if not more) as my airline Captain pay, yet I will work considerably less hours and be home more. Overall career earnings would be on-par with both, yet the average corporate job length is probably not as long as my remaining 20 years of airline flying (I'm 45).

The company is privately owned (I don't want to give names), but from what I have researched, it is very well off. The flying operation is small and there is no on-call, etc. The pilots can work out their own schedules most of the time. The only negative with the whole situation is that their President/CEO, who is a highly powerful individual in the business world, but he is well up there in years of age. This individual is the mover-and-shaker for this company, and does the "bulk" of the flying in the back of the jet. My concern is the long-term prospect of this job. I have talked to the pilot and he says everything is in place to keep the flight dept for years, but in the corporate world nothing is guaranteed. He has been very honest with me with all the positives and negatives of this job (right now the positives outweigh the negatives).

I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has gone from a major airline to corporate, especially from the Captain's seat. I will be commuting to the airline Capt's seat, working approximately 90 hours per month, yet the corporate job is in my back yard and a lot less flying. Also, once qualified in a Global Express, if the job ever goes away, is it easy to find another corporate job? I hear it is a very close community.

To close, I have not yet been offered this corporate job, as I am now doing heavy research. I would be giving up another 20 years of airline flying which is a lot. Yet when contract time comes around in a few years I do believe the unions (all of them) will strike, with the possibility of a company sell-off by management. This, and the attitude of the major airlines employees right now is "toxic," which aside from the flying, can be a detriment. I have thouroughly enjoyed the airline job (flying, layovers, etc), but the labor-management conflict is a hard fought battle that is never ending, and contributes to too much negativity. Finally, I realize a lot of you would love to have this "problem," of mine. I am very grateful for both my airline job and the potential corporate offer, yet it will be a huge career decision for me if I am offered the corporate job to my satisfaction. Thanks for your replies.

Corp vs. Airlines
 

Personally, I don't see a choice here. I left Continental for a corporate/charter position in 1988, never looked back.

TransMach

I recently left a corporate/charter job and took a $50,000 pay cut just to get back in with an airline. I hated the corporate job. You are always babying spoiled rich people. You are the ramper, flight attendent, gate agent, dispatcher, and everything else. Everytime something is wrong, even if it is the weather it is your fault. No schedule. There is no union protection--duty time, days off, etc. (I'm not big pro-union but it really makes a difference). There are no travel benefits. I didn't think I used them until I was without them.
I know guys who love that flying and can't understand why I would ever want to "drive a bus". I would think really hard about what you like before you leave a major. 90% of the guys I flew corporate with were dying to get your job.

I don't blame you for wondering about what is undoubtedly one of the most difficult decisions you will make during your career. I recently had to make a similar decision when I received my final recall letter from US Airways. My choice was to either accept recall, or remain at the corporate flight department where i've been for three years.

The lifestyle at the corporate flight department has hands down FAR exceeded airline lifestyle in every area. I spend far more time at home with my family. I rarely spend a night in a hotel. The pay is a bit less than the airlines, but the lifestyle makes up for it.

Keep in mind though that I fly a light jet, whereas you will be flying a Global Express. The Global is a great airplane, but in corporate the old axiom is "The bigger the airplane, the bigger the suitcase."

I wish you the best in your decision. Let us know what you decide.

I think vonerotate and TransMach posts show its up to the individual and the operation they work for.

You express concern about the stability in corporate aviation, yet also the future of the working environment in 121, both unknowns.

You want 121 to corporate captains to respond, but if you'll take the opinion of a corporate to 121 FO here it is.

Yes a type in a large cabin corporate aircraft is marketable if something was to happen to the flight department. Most corporate departments are wary of 121 guys because the expense of traning in can be high, my guess is 30 to 50k for the initial type on that AC. So if you already have the training, future moves in type are easier. From what I've been told by 121 guys commuting, it sux, and there is nothing like driving to your flying job. Less stress equals longer life. Other corporate perks are building hotel, car and airline points that you can really use.

I can understand your hesitation leaving 121 for corporate, afterall if you don't like it, you cant just get back in line where you were.

Good luck.

I dont know if this will help you, but here is a post I made on another website as I was making my decision whether to accept recall or stay where I am:

"My fellow pilots,

The November bid includes 165 recalls. With a roughly 10% recall rate anticipated, this bid should exhaust the furlough list and generate meaningful hiring for US Airways.

I have been told to expect the "take it or leave it" letter within the next two weeks, and that classdates will be scheduled in September and October.

Over the last several months I have labored over this decision. I have spent countless hours on the internet on this forum and many others. I have spent hours more on the telephone with former co-workers, other furloughees, family and friends deliberating over the decision.

5 years is a long time. Honestly I can barely remember what the job was like at US Airways. Over the last 5 years i've worked for 2 regionals before ending up at a corporate flight department. I've moved twice. Our son was born and may take his first steps any day.

I wonder whether i'm the same man I was years ago. Honestly I doubt it. When I started my first job as a Jetstream 31 first officer with Chautauqua I never imagined that I would spend the next decade working for 3 regionals, 1 lcc, 1 major only to end up flying a 7 passenger corporate jet. The airline pilot lifestyle was all I ever wanted. I remember looking at that Jetstream as though it were the finest airplane in the sky. I was proud of the aircraft, proud of the uniform, and proud of the job. I polished my shoes, wore my hat, and dreamed of the day that I would make the inevitable leap to the cockpit of a Boeing.

When that day came in 1999 and US Airways began hiring 100 pilots each month after my date of hire, I thought I had won the lottery. The job was almost everything I dreamed of. Most of my frustrations were with the association. I honestly felt as though ALPA was damaging my career far more then they were helping it. At every turn they seemed intent upon building new barriers to prevent the company from competing in the airline industry. The contract was amazing, and I appreciated everything it offered, but as I became more involved and attended ALPA meetings I realized that I completely misunderstood ALPA's mission. To me the union's motto should have been "ALPA: Job security is Job #1". But it wasn't. ALPA protected its most senior members at the expense of it's most junior. It robbed from the poor, to give to the rich.

Later, with thousands of pilots on furlough, ALPA would continue to shield it's most senior members by allowing the company to raise pay-caps, by continuing to allow the outsourcing of an armada of regional jets, by failing its most junior members.

The national union leadership could clearly see that a nationwide whipsaw was in effect couldn't they? How could they successfully represent both the US Airways pilots who had lost their jobs and the regional jet pilots who were reaping the benefit?

Over the last 5 years the airline pilot profession has changed. Compensation, lifestyle, work-rules, duty rigs, and retirement have all suffered. Narrowbody jets with as many as 95 passenger seats are flown by outsourced feeders at a fraction of the pay and benefits that such positions should command... and pilots line up for those positions. Pilots spend countless nights away from their families in pursuit of a lifestyle that no longer exists. Except for those rare few who work for FedEx or UPS, the dream is dead.

The profession does not protect experience. If US Airways were to disappear tomorrow its pilots, should they choose to continue in their profession, would start over. Just as the 1800+ furloughees were forced to find employment as commuter first officers, charter pilots, expatriots (yes, they left their COUNTRY to achieve some measure of success in exchange for their sacrifice)... so too would those who found themselves unemployed due to the destruction of the airline. Who is at fault? Managers who lack the ability to control pricing? ALPA who is incapable of putting a premium on experience and creating a national seniority list to prevent pilots from becoming handcuffed to a single operator?

I'm rambling.

So I made an extensive list of pros and cons. I carried the list with me for weeks and added to it whenever a thought came to me. I stared at that list time and time again trying to see a clear answer. Accept the recall, or abandon the dream in favor of my new life.

I emphasize how much time I put into this because I want the young pilots who read this thread to understand how much time and effort had been put into achieving that major airline position -- and that giving it up has been no easy decision.

But that is the decision I made.

I'm going to remain with the corporate flight department where I am currently employed. It is by no means perfect, but it offers me a lifestyle that could only be enjoyed by the most senior airline pilots. As I write this I sit in a hotel on one of the very rare overnights we are scheduled for. My son's photograph is the wallpaper on my laptop and I can't help but wonder what he is doing right now. Every day he does something that he has never done before and watching him discover the world is just amazing to me. I miss my wife and son after less than 24 hours away. How could I even consider commuting to sit in a Philadelphia crash-pad for days at a time missing out on all of that?

Make no mistake. This has not been easy. I've wanted to be an airline pilot for as long as I can remember. I was that kid -- the one who had no other hobbies, no other interests. I was singularly focused on that airline career.

So thank you everyone for all of the advice, the insider information, the emails and PMs, the phone calls, and the friendship you have provided to help me make this choice. I wish all of the US Airways pilots -- east and west -- the very best. There is something about that airline. Something more than airplanes, tugs, and people. It will survive and prosper in spite of itself. East and West pilots need to come together and take back ALPA.

No more meetings at high priced resorts. Hold your meetings where pilots can attend -- airport hotels at the domiciles. Spend your membership dollars as if they were your own. No more meals at 4 star restaurants. Protect your junior pilots. They are the foundation upon which the profession is being built. Defend their jobs as if they were your own...failure to do so will cause more and more pilots to "look out for #1"... The result of that practice is apparent. G0-Jets, SkyBus, Virgin America...

Good luck to all, and thank you. The experience I gained flying by your sides has made me the pilot that I am today. I will not forget the lessons learned."

Have you thought about taking a leave of absence? Would allow you to feel out the corporate gig, and go back if necessary.

Which is exactly why corporates are extremely reticent about hiring 121 guys.

I would say that you should look at the company and then look at the guys/gals that you would be working with. A pure Part 91 corporate flying job can be awesome. I was about the same seniority as you at a major airline. I wouldn't go back for anything. I also work for a private corporation. These guys are a lot smarter than the typical airline manager. You may have an old guy running the show, as we do, but they will have somone in the wings who will take over. They are training him or her right now. Everytime that I go to work it is like going to a flying club to go up with a bunch of friends. I love it. With that said, I still have my seniority number just in case the smelly stuff hits the fan. Good luck.

Thanks to all of you for replying! I hope to meet with the CP within the next 2 weeks to see if I am a serious candidate for the position. Until then, please keep the posts coming . . . it certainly has been beneficial to me. The bottom line is . . . the airlines have definitely changed, and they are not what "most" pilots signed up for 10-15 years ago. With that said, the majors still offer a "good" job, one that I have enjoyed (except the nasty labor-mgmt issues which will destroy at least one major-my prediction), However, I never realized how special an excellent corporate flying job could be . . . Thanks for the words . . . like Zap, this decision will be a tough one.

^ How did the meeting go?
I just recently left NetJets for a part 91 corporate job. I was also at a regional for way to long. I would never go back to 121, those places are sweat shops(ie. way to much work).

I have been involved with corporate aviation my whole career and I cannot say enough good things about it. There are good corporate jobs, and there are bad ones. The good ones operate with a safety philosophy second to none, rigid S.O.P’s, and a culture that treats its employees as human capital, a true resource. Simply, the bad ones don’t.

A one (large) aircraft flight department funded by a private corporation with a CEO near retirement does raise a few red flags. I would find out how the chain of command will flow once the CEO retires and concentrate on the new leaders’ vision and justification for use of the corporate aircraft.

Many newer flight departments tend to have five year tenure. This closely parallels the IRS’s M.A.C.R.S. depreciation scale. In my opinion, many new flight departments get started up with a brand new airplane; once the warranty runs out, and once the full five year depreciation has been written off, the corporation decides to sell the aircraft (with a huge IRS hit for no like-kind exchange) versus paying higher maintenance costs, which will affect overall D.O.C.’s. Just something to ponder. I would personally be cautious when examining ANY corporate job that has not been established for at least five years.

On the flip side of that issue, my last job lasted eight years, and they shut down. Knee-jerk corporate politics, necessitating a whole-new post.

Good luck with your decision!

Anyone know of corporate 757's floating around? I know about a few sports teams and casinos but that's it.

Great thread.. I appreciate all the info in this. I'm still trying to figure out what to be when I grow up. Retiring from the Navy next year and not sure which way to go.

Paul Allen, the guy that founded Microsoft with Gates and owns the Seattle Seahawks has two

The airlines may not be what most pilots signed on for but they are still better then 95% of the corporate jobs out there. Especially if the job envolves 135 management company. I left BEX in 1999 for a "good" P91 job flying Gulfstream 2 & 3 and Westwind 2 and four years later the flight department was no longer around. After that I have had to fly mostley P135 stuff and It sucks, no pay raise in two years and they have pulled my vacation time off the week before the scheduled time off. They do nothing but screw with your head and there is no union to stand up for you. I am trying desperatley to get on with a major and most of the good corporate guys under 40 that I know are trying to get on with the majors. There are some great P91 jobs out there but there is a waiting list a mile long to get one of those jobs. Good luck with your decision.

Yuciapa corporation has a sweet 757 with winglets based in Burbank. It is usually park just south of runway 8. I don't know anyone there anymore but it used to be a great job. Good Luck

Very well written, full of truths and surprisingly non-bitter...

I am a 1990 USAir refuge myself and echo your thoughts about ALPA, particularly at USAir. I was astounded at the over the top eat-the-young there. Yes seniority is king, but in the furlough cycle then, the carnage was unbelievable and we were actually kept on the street for over eight (8) years by back room sleazy deals to benefit a tiny portion of the list. I had no interest in going back.

I went a different route, after returning to GA/corporate for awhile after my furlough. One of my students who was a CFO for a silicon valley mega-company took pity on me and did an in-depth study of the airplane (not just airline) business in general, from a purely money viewpoint. He concluded that if I "insisted" on flying for a living and staying at the same company until retirement I had two choices...UPS and Fed Ex (in that order). The profit margins, balance sheets and resiliency of their business model were unparalleled in his words. He then suggested finding that needle in the haystack, the stable, high paying long term corporate job followed by the passenger carriers. I flew for two very sleazy non-sched freight operators before landing the UPS job 12 years ago. While no job, aviation or anywhere else is 100% secure, I feel pretty good for the first time in a long time even on the cusp of a media generated recession.

A good friend of mine just junior to me at USAir is doing corporate now and loves it. His QOL is far better than it was commuting three or four times a month to PIT, PHL or CLT. He was aging like he was president of the U.S.

Once again, nice post.

One of our guys flew for him years ago. Not very impressed.

Well..."The bigger the aircraft, the bigger the @$$hole."

Some corporate operators don't think 121 pilots want to deal with everything you have to do as a corporate pilot -- in corporate flying, you're the ramp agent, the baggage handler, the cleaner, etc, etc... If you're coming from the 121 world and use to having a large team to help you out, it can be quite a transition and many 121 pilots find they don't like it. On the other hand, many pilots get into corporate flying and find it's the best flying they've ever done...

With a good principle, it can be the best flying you've ever done. My only caution would be to make sure you're prepared for the possibility of the job going away. Either the owner dumps the flight department or retires and the flight department goes away or it goes away for any number of reasons. Also, no union protection in the corporate world -- someone wakes up and decides they don't like you one day and you're gone. That being said, nowadays, it's a crap shoot in any flying job. Even if it does go away, having the Global Express type rating would be a big plus in finding more corporate work. As I'm sure you've figured out, corporate flying is all about who you know and being in the right place at the right time. If you do make the transition, I'm sure you'll really enjoy the flying!

A friend of mine that never went back to U.S. Air said althought is making 150-200K per year flying contract on G-3.G-4's his quality of life sucks compared to what he had at the airlines.

I have flown 121 and 135/91 jobs. To be honest the flying is more fun in 135/91. The problem is you end up being the *itch to either the management company or the owner and if your owner decides he can almost do anything he wants to you and there is no union protection. You will also find alot of corporate/charter guys undersell themselves below NBAA or Pro Pilot magazine industry pay rates.

There are many few corporate pilots who have had the SAME job for most of their carear. My mom is a corporoate flight attendant and has been with like 5 different corporations..... job security is non existant..... when costs have to be cut, they usually get rid of the gulfstreams lol

I am sure no job id forever but I have been with my company 10 years. I dont see the flt department going away for a long time...

^ Same here. Most guys at my department have been here 25+years. Very telling if you ask me.

As a WHOLE how many corporate pilots do you know who have only worked for 1 or 2 companies....... not many... My moms company just took order of a brand spanking new custom G-450.... well 2 months later, company sold, divided up. Bye Bye flight department.... Who woulda thought?

BIG airplanes become BIG targets, it's just a fact of life in this business.

As a WHOLE, if you fly for a financially stable company that is not a takeover candidate with a culture that supports corporate aviation, then I would say that long-term, stable employment is pretty much in the bag. Having the right aircraft for the corporate mission is also very important. If load factors are (e.g.) running at three and average stage length is 1.2, then the corporation does not need a G450.

If you fly for a relatively new company that has not had a department for over five years, then I would be cautious. Many companies seem to lose aircraft congruently with IRS MACRS depreciation schedules.

If a corporation flies 100-250 hours per year, I would be cautious as well. Utilization of this type would be better suited with a fractional share or a pre-purchased block of charter hours.

You have to complete your due diligence before accepting any offer from any corporate flight department. Culture and utilization are the brick and mortar of determining secure employment.