logging PIC question
 

Can some help clarify a logging PIC question..
If during your initial training you receive a PIC Type but you are flying right seat/SIC, when could you log PIC time?
Thanks

You should be logging PIC when you are the PIC - the guy signing for the aircraft.

Everyone gets a "PIC type" from FlightSafety - actually being the PIC is an entirely different story

In reality - log what you want - just be able to explain it and back it up with your skills and mindset.

I do a lot of interviews, its very easy to differentiate between a Captain and a type rated SIC padding PIC time.

Simple don't log the time unless you've actually earned it. In other words even if you're in the left seat with your airline or oufit and not the final authority, its NOT PIC. Period. I'm fully typed in the bus but sit in the right seat for my company....guess what I'm still the FO.

We recently discussed this here:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/av...questions.html

Your logbook is yours. What you log is your business. What you use/attempt to use towards a certificate or a rating is a different story. Training received in a simulator in a FAR 142 training program can be counted towards a cert. or a rating. Any other sim can not, not even FAR 121 training.

FAR 61.51

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
top
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device, as appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:
(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or
(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.
(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
(i) Presentation of required documents. (1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by—
(i) The Administrator;
(ii) An authorized representative from the National Transportation Safety Board; or
(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.
(2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required authorized instructor clearances and endorsements—
(i) Pilot logbook;
(ii) Student pilot certificate; and
(iii) Any other record required by this section.
(3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.
(4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo flights—
(i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which training was received;
(ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air traffic control;
(iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or
(iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an appropriate category or class rating.
(5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight training.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40897, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20286, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61–110, 69 FR 44865, July 27, 2004]

Part 91 PIC = Sole minipulator if you are typed.

Part 1 PIC(FedEx, UPS, SWA 1000hrs. PIC) = Signed for the Aircraft. Name listed per leg on Flight Plan IFR/VFR. Or Aircraft maintanance log if required VFR/IFR. Can still be logged PIC for sole manipulator but Does Not count towards these purposes.

Part 135, 125, 121 PIC = Required for dispatch release signature. Cannot log sole manipulator PIC under these Regs.

Nice, simple to the point and even correct. What more can you want :p

i hate this "sole manipulator" BS, thats just one part of the regulation.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

I can instruct for a week, never touch the controls, and log PIC.

FURTHERMORE, I can take a private pilot up to show him a takeoff, pattern, and landing and HE can log PIC if he never touches the controls because Dual given as a private is PIC.

At my company we typically fly with two type rated captians, Nobody "signs" for the airplane before we leave for the trip we are just assigned to fly the trip. When you look at the flight logs it only lists the name of the crew members, no Captian or FO. We among our selves understand that we switch seats every leg so when I am in the left seat i log PIC and when I am in the right seat I Log SIC. Does that sound like it would be logged accurately enough for the 1000 PIC turbine requirements?

Your trip sheets do not assign a PIC/SIC or Captain/Co-Pilot?

Of course most operations have all "type rated Captains" but there is no "PIC/SIC" assigned?

Who does the logs/paperwork upon return?

Who is listed as PIC on the flight plans?

If someone asked to speak to the Captain, who is it?

On overflight permits, landing rights, etc who is the Captain?

I have never heard of not having some sort of delegation of PIC/SIC!

:confused:

I know this works in the military because the IP will "sign for" the aircraft.
In the civilian world - does the CFI sign for the aircraft from the FBO?
I'm with you on the instructor being the PIC - I'm just wondering if it is as easy to show as in the military?

USMCFLYR

NowCorporate -

Me either! I talked with a pilot of a Falcon 50 once for over an hour as he showed me around the cockpit and I asked him the exact question though not is as great of detail as you ask above and he gave me the sama answer as DSflyer.

Now if no one signed for the aircraft in my mind (like we do in the military) then I would log it the same way that he does - left seat PIC, right seat SIC. On a military flight plan even if I am the co-pilot filling out and filing the flight plan - ours has a spot to differeniate between PIC and other crew members so I could turn to the flight plan legally I guess (but it is easier than that - he who signed for the aircraft gets the PIC time); but on the civilian flight plan - couldn't I as the SIC sign the flight plan as PILOT?

If someone asked to speak with the Captain - couldn't a corporate guy say "I'm one of the pilots. What can I do for you?" Maybe it isn't the same in corporate aviation (you would know, not I) but if something went wrong and the CP wanted to talk to the **captain** - how would that distinction be made? The guy with the most seniority in the flight department even if he was sitting right seat SIC on that leg?

USMCFLYR

Our trip sheets just name "crew members" (pilots) not captian and fo. On the last leg of the trip, or when we get back somebody says "well I'll go do the paperwork," and he goes and does it. Nobody has ever asked to "speak with the captian," so I guess I would just say can I help you. We also trade off tasks such as flight planning, so typically when I do the flightplans I put my name as PIC because we don't know which legs we will be flying in the left seat at that point, so it just makes it eaiser. At least Im glad to see that USMCFLYR agrees with the way I log my time anybody else have any input?

DS-

Do you guys have SOP's, an Ops manual etc, that defines who does what?

Or do you just use PF/PNF etc?

We record each leg's PF on our trip sheets. With two type-rated, insurance-approved, company-employed PICs our practice is for the left-seat PF on any given leg to be the designated PIC.

With contract pilots, the company pilot is ALWAYS PIC, regardless of qualifications, PF, or seat flown.

I disagree. What is your authority for such a statement?

1. The sole manipulator of the controls can log PIC (whether or not he/she is PIC) if rated in the A/C. [61.51(e)(1)]

2. An appropriately rated CFI giving dual can log PIC (whether or not he/she is PIC). [61.51(e)(3)]

3. An ATP can log PIC in an ATP operation if he/she is PIC. [61.51(e)(2)]

We do have an ops manual, but I don't recall anything reguarding duties of the crew members, except of course what the FAR's designate with requards to PIC duties. As Bolier said below your post we just have a trip sheet where we fill in names for the pilot flying for that particular leg, so as stated before, as a crew we understand that the person in the left seat for that particular leg is the PIC. If we do use contract pilots than myself for instance is the PIC for all the legs, even if I let the contractor fly from the left seat, because I am the only pilot in the airplane employed by the company, so at that time I am the only person responsible for the operation for the entire duration of the trip.

so lets say i go up with a student and show him lazy 8s for the first time. if i show him it two times, can he not log those 10 minutes because he's not the "sole manipulator"?

Whats the difference if its 2, 10 or 1 hr?

If you are typed in the airplane, you can log PIC time any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls per CFR 61. In other words, if it's your leg, you can log it even if you are assigned as SIC. If you are the assigned PIC you can log PIC time regardless of whether you're flying or not.

Yep.
Nope, unless you are an ATP in an ATP operation.

Are you arguing about what the regs say, or about the "reasonableness" of the regs?

I would say that if you are demoing to a student for any time other than a tiny portion of the flight (less than a tenth of an hour) TO SOMEONE THAT IS ALREADY RATED IN THE AIRCRAFT, then:

1. Technically, according to the regs, he can't log the entire flight time as PIC.
2. If you are doing a demo to a rated pilot, of any maneuver that takes more than about 30 seconds, that's pretty unusual.

We aren't logging time to the nearest second, so the usual practice of "rounding" the rated student's "sole manipulator" time to the nearest tenth is reasonable.

We were talking about this "ATP operation" the other day. What is it? I've never heard of it.

See FAR 61.51(e)(2); I don't know any more than that.

Ah............i get it now any operation that requires an ATP aka 121 flying.

No. The private pilot must manipulate the controls to log the time as PIC. Dual given is not PIC time, just "dual given" in the instructor's logbook, and "dual received" in the students logbook. It has nothing to do with logging PIC time as stated in 61.51.

Not if you are an ATP. Only a sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log PIC as sole manipulator for an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.

I can tell you that while during an interview for an operation looking for Part 1 PIC time you will have to explain why your PIC and SIC swap legs. Log it as you wish it just depends what your end goal is. I have never had a corporate interview that required Part 1 PIC. Most insurance companies use Part 61 PIC to meet minimum standards.

got to agree with DSflyer05, we operate about the same exact way. log what you want, just be able to explain yourself as something more than a time-padding right seater

Sometimes 121 can be a beautiful thing. No worries over this sort of stuff just CAs & FOs. :)

Yeah but why does it matter, you fly a G5 right?

The great JD...

I have to agree at my former 135 we alternated legs and took turns logging SIC and PIC however our trip sheets did specify PIC and SIC so we just filled out trip sheets for the 135 legs and the 91 legs had different paper work

He's also an expert on the Hawker and snowblades:D....

I'm a captain qualified FO for my company. When I sit in the left seat while the the captain is asleep I'm still an FO. Don't log PIC unless you are the PIC, by that I mean you are the one that will take the heat if the s#!t hits the fan. You will save yourself a lot of grief and trouble down the road.

Oh man these regs confuse the hell out of me sometimes.

So when I flew 121, I logged PIC when I acted as PIC. And at that company the guy sitting next to me was not typed in the aircraft so he logged SIC.

Now, I fly 91 where I am designated Captain/PIC on all trips/paperwork. I fly with another guy who has the same type rating/qualifications I do. We are both qualified as PIC under 91 for this aircraft. He claims we can both log PIC time during all flights, regardless of whether acting as PF or PNF. I say he is wrong. I have been logging PIC time for the legs I fly, and not logging PIC for his legs.

Another can of worms: When we have a third/relief pilot on these 91 legs, one of us sits in the cabin and rests. So if that relief pilot happens to be me for 2 hours out of a 7 hour flight, what do I log? 5 hours PIC? Or 7 hours PIC? I have been logging neither PIC or SIC for the time I am asleep. But of course, who is the PIC during the time I am sleeping?

Ideas?

If you are the designated PIC of a flight, then you can log PIC for the entire flight regardless of what seat you sit in or who is PF/PNF. This is Part 1 PIC time.

That would mean the other pilot, even though he is PIC qualified, is a designated SIC; he could only log PIC for that time when he is the PF (via sole manipulator clause). This is Part 61 PIC time.

On the legs where you have an IRO, you're still the designated PIC responsible for the airplane, right? As such, you log PIC for the entire flight.

In my one-jet operation, we have two PICs. My title is Chief Pilot, the other guy's title is Captain. Our arrangement is there is only one acting & actual PIC for any given flight - the guy occupying the left "command" seat. On any given flight, the guy in the left seat drives the bus and acts/logs PIC; the guy in the right seat acts as PNF and logs SIC. Swap seats, swap responsibilities, swap what you log. Works well for us...

Thanks man! Good explanation.

So the legs that he flies are being logged as PIC by both of us. It is still a strange idea to me, but fair enough.

I say you log it how you feel comfortable logging it. If you feel you shouldn't log something, then don't, no one is forcing you.

Unless you bend metal, or are going to another job and they somehow audit your logbook against someone else's, no one is going to know anything differently regardless.

If my hands are on the controls, I'm PIC, if I'm teaching/supervising/babysitting a lower-experience pilot, I'm PIC, if I'm flying with my co-worker, I don't log it. I don't fly 2-pilot aircraft, so it makes this decision easier.

Sure... but you can keep that paycheck. ;)

As for logging the PIC time... I agree with the concept that in the absence of being "named" PIC, the flying pilot in the left seat logs PIC.