Getting into corporate flying
11-24-2010, 06:24 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by UCLAbruins
Its been a loooong time since i've seen a G-V, Global or large Falcon job posting that didn't require a type rating. And forget about the 300 hours in type, now it seems they want 500.
I have never seen a good GV/Glex/large Falcon job ever really posted at all.....unless it was the HR fluff ad after it was filled internally.
Last edited by NowCorporate; 11-24-2010 at 06:40 PM.
11-25-2010, 10:10 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: DAL 737 FO
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by NowCorporate
I have never seen a good GV/Glex/large Falcon job ever really posted at all.....unless it was the HR fluff ad after it was filled internally.
11-25-2010, 12:51 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: F/O- G-V/550
Posts: 1,163
not many good jobs left.
as far as the corporate world goes it seems Executive Jet Management is still doing some hiring. They posted Global Express and Challenger 300 job openings, both in Southern Cal. And 2 G-V openings at Teterhole. EJM does want a type
The problem with EJM is that you're gonna have to move if/when you're airplane goes away. But if you're in Southern or Northenr Cal, NYC, Chicago or Florida probably wouldn't worry too much about it
as far as the corporate world goes it seems Executive Jet Management is still doing some hiring. They posted Global Express and Challenger 300 job openings, both in Southern Cal. And 2 G-V openings at Teterhole. EJM does want a type
The problem with EJM is that you're gonna have to move if/when you're airplane goes away. But if you're in Southern or Northenr Cal, NYC, Chicago or Florida probably wouldn't worry too much about it
11-25-2010, 03:22 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Challenger 604
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by 7Xdriver
Well....not so much. If someone fits the profile and has a type rating, why would someone consider anyone else??? You save a LOT on initial training costs. To say managers don't care about such a leg-up is not what I have experienced.
I work for a Fortune 50 company and we have been searching for some time for someone who has a type, is local and is in the 30-40ish range (for future retirement considerations). If you add in the more important factor....will this person fit into our corporate culture....so far does not exist.
I think what you, NowCorp.... are saying is that at some point the those who hire in the Corporate sector will rethink what the profile is based on what is available . This is where we are at.
Currently, we are considering hiring someone who we can grow as our own. Someone who is a bit "wet under the ears" but talented and fits our profile.
If we could get this person with a type (in our types)....they are a shoe-in
Just sayin'
I work for a Fortune 50 company and we have been searching for some time for someone who has a type, is local and is in the 30-40ish range (for future retirement considerations). If you add in the more important factor....will this person fit into our corporate culture....so far does not exist.
I think what you, NowCorp.... are saying is that at some point the those who hire in the Corporate sector will rethink what the profile is based on what is available . This is where we are at.
Currently, we are considering hiring someone who we can grow as our own. Someone who is a bit "wet under the ears" but talented and fits our profile.
If we could get this person with a type (in our types)....they are a shoe-in
Just sayin'
A Gulfstream type through Simulfight is around 45-50k and if you negotiate with them that will normally include a recurrent that by itself would cost 20k. So in that example the company is really only coming out of pocket 25-30k. Split the difference with the new hire and the company paid 15k for the new guy plus paid him less his first year. This number drops even more if its a 135 gig and the captains need to go to reccurent every 6 months instead of every 12. If a company is ****ing and moaning about the cost of a type then they probably shouldnt be operating an airplane because in the grand scheme of things with fuel, maint, payroll and crew training expenses costing what they do - typing the "right person" is a minimal expense and can be easily managed
With the right approach...
For the right person of course...
I too - am just sayin
11-25-2010, 03:36 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 327
Originally Posted by cobber
All the talk about a type being required is a little skewed. There are a lot of operators who are not that concerned about the cost of a type as long as they (as you said) have the right person for the job. The type is a minimal cost in the long run that can be offset by a salary decrease for the first 6-12 months. Which I would imagine the the untyped out of work pilot candidate would gladly accept in return for a type and a great flying job
A Gulfstream type through Simulfight is around 45-50k and if you negotiate with them that will normally include a recurrent that by itself would cost 20k. So in that example the company is really only coming out of pocket 25-30k. Split the difference with the new hire and the company paid 15k for the new guy plus paid him less his first year. This number drops even more if its a 135 gig and the captains need to go to reccurent every 6 months instead of every 12. If a company is ****ing and moaning about the cost of a type then they probably shouldnt be operating an airplane because in the grand scheme of things with fuel, maint, payroll and crew training expenses costing what they do - typing the "right person" is a minimal expense and can be easily managed
With the right approach...
For the right person of course...
I too - am just sayin
A Gulfstream type through Simulfight is around 45-50k and if you negotiate with them that will normally include a recurrent that by itself would cost 20k. So in that example the company is really only coming out of pocket 25-30k. Split the difference with the new hire and the company paid 15k for the new guy plus paid him less his first year. This number drops even more if its a 135 gig and the captains need to go to reccurent every 6 months instead of every 12. If a company is ****ing and moaning about the cost of a type then they probably shouldnt be operating an airplane because in the grand scheme of things with fuel, maint, payroll and crew training expenses costing what they do - typing the "right person" is a minimal expense and can be easily managed
With the right approach...
For the right person of course...
I too - am just sayin
11-25-2010, 04:51 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Challenger 604
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by AKASHA
I don't think the cost of the type-rating is the issue. I think the operator would like the pilot to have some meaningful experience in type.
The heavy jets in particular are difficult - They've only built 183 G550s for example, so its not like theres thousands of typed G550 pilots in the states - out of a job - with the ability to relocate. So you have relatively few people to choose from.
Not trying to play devils advocate but it would be nice to see these flight departments drop the type requirement and give more people a chance. The odds are that if you are a chief pilot your total time and time in type(s) will allow you to designate a copilot of your choosing so long as they ultimately posses an ATP license and the type. I suppose it all comes down to the willingness and desire to train a new hire on a new aircraft.
11-25-2010, 05:15 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 98
I agree with you on that one. It seems crazy that a pilot can have thousands and thousands of hours, many of those pic jet time and yet minus a type in that particular jet you can't even get looked at. I understand insurance and experience but you would think that the previous flight time would count.
11-25-2010, 05:23 PM
#28
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,504
Having a type rating and/or time in type isn't necessary for getting an otherwise qualified pilot on your insurance if your agent is actually earning their commission from your business.
...and if they're not, then you should take your business to someone who will.
...and if they're not, then you should take your business to someone who will.
11-25-2010, 10:51 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,580
Type and time in type are some of the biggest obstacles you will run into.
From what I've noticed, much of the corporate hiring patterns are based on what's going on in the airlines. For example, when the airlines are hiring in full swing, fewer applicants are looking into corporate and most of the concentration is on the major airlines hiring. Therefore, it may be easier to break into corporate during airline hiring upswing, and quite possibly, it may be easier to get hired without a type rating.
When the airlines are furloughing, then you have every single furloughee looking into corporate as well. Sadly, after 9/11 and the recent recessionary furlough, many furloughed airline pilots screwed the pooch for many of us by getting hired at corporate operators, getting that expensive type rating, only to say - "Screw it... I don't like this non-union, non-airline crap.." and bailing, leaving the employer eating the cost of rating and without a pilot.
That would explain why many employers now require type and time in type... right or wrong, it is the world we live in. It is not an insurmountable obstacle, but it is a rather large obstacle. As BoilerUP mentioned, network, network, and network some more.
From what I've noticed, much of the corporate hiring patterns are based on what's going on in the airlines. For example, when the airlines are hiring in full swing, fewer applicants are looking into corporate and most of the concentration is on the major airlines hiring. Therefore, it may be easier to break into corporate during airline hiring upswing, and quite possibly, it may be easier to get hired without a type rating.
When the airlines are furloughing, then you have every single furloughee looking into corporate as well. Sadly, after 9/11 and the recent recessionary furlough, many furloughed airline pilots screwed the pooch for many of us by getting hired at corporate operators, getting that expensive type rating, only to say - "Screw it... I don't like this non-union, non-airline crap.." and bailing, leaving the employer eating the cost of rating and without a pilot.
That would explain why many employers now require type and time in type... right or wrong, it is the world we live in. It is not an insurmountable obstacle, but it is a rather large obstacle. As BoilerUP mentioned, network, network, and network some more.
11-26-2010, 06:25 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Captian, G450, G550 (Ret.)
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by NowCorporate
Well....I kinda THINK we are saying the same thing?
We will pass on a DA-7X contractor for a full time job, regardless of his type and 500hrs in the airplane because, well...why is he a contractor? does nobody want to hire him? why?
Same goes for many experienced guys rated in GV/GLEX/900/7X etc. Not that this can apply across the board these days - but why are they unemployed? Why were they the ones chosen during the cutbacks? Been there and participated in the decision process...and please, no matter what they tell you, you aren't usually eligible for re-hire. lol. Its called cleaning house.
Anyhow, my experience with this is mostly in a major metro area. The qualified/experienced guys who were known as good guys didn't spend long looking for work even at the lows in the market - typed or not people wanted them. Being local helps a lot. Others (the house cleaning part) took a lot longer. One can guess as to why.
Maybe I have been lucky. The few places I worked so far have been far more concerned with getting the right person as a fit as opposed to saving 40K on an initial.
And I agree, finding the right person is a very, very hard process. Having participated in a lot of hiring, the simple fact is that you dont know what you have for at least a year...and thats what scares me most about hiring into our very small department.
Have a good Thanksgiving!
We will pass on a DA-7X contractor for a full time job, regardless of his type and 500hrs in the airplane because, well...why is he a contractor? does nobody want to hire him? why?
Same goes for many experienced guys rated in GV/GLEX/900/7X etc. Not that this can apply across the board these days - but why are they unemployed? Why were they the ones chosen during the cutbacks? Been there and participated in the decision process...and please, no matter what they tell you, you aren't usually eligible for re-hire. lol. Its called cleaning house.
Anyhow, my experience with this is mostly in a major metro area. The qualified/experienced guys who were known as good guys didn't spend long looking for work even at the lows in the market - typed or not people wanted them. Being local helps a lot. Others (the house cleaning part) took a lot longer. One can guess as to why.
Maybe I have been lucky. The few places I worked so far have been far more concerned with getting the right person as a fit as opposed to saving 40K on an initial.
And I agree, finding the right person is a very, very hard process. Having participated in a lot of hiring, the simple fact is that you dont know what you have for at least a year...and thats what scares me most about hiring into our very small department.
Have a good Thanksgiving!
Agreed! Happy Holidays!
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