Considering a Career Shift
 

I already have a thread posted in the Career Builder/Career Questions section (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ca...t-too-old.html), so I won't duplicate the questions I ask there, but do encourage some of you corporate iron haulers to go check it out and see what you think, and possibly offer up some of your thoughts.

My questions here will be a little more focused. I am specifically interested in flying for a corporate flight department or charter company that services corporate clients. While it would be awesome, I am being realistic and do not aspire to fly G650s or Globals. At this point, I'd be perfectly happy with King Airs or small jets.

My questions:

1.) I notice a LOT of people in the other thread that appear to hate their jobs. That's disappointing. Not sure if these are all regional pilots or what. I certainly do not want to hate my job (which is why I am exploring this option in the first place, because my current job does nothing for me). What's the general consensus over here? Do most of you find your job at least somewhat rewarding?

2.) As mentioned in the other thread, I just turned 40, and have less than 100 hours total time right now. I have a steep hill to climb, would it be worth it to land a corporate gig... or, more to the point, is it even possible? Do corporate flight departments consider applicants that don't have thousands upon thousands of hours?

3.) Lifestyle. What is the typical lifestyle for corporate pilots? I'm really flexible... I can handle weirdo hours and some missed holidays, as long as it isn't QUITE as bad as some regional pilots have it. I get the last minute flights, etc. Just looking for more details along these lines, with the understanding that everyone is going to have a slightly different story depending on the company.

I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but this is a good start. Thanks in advance for any guidance you toss my way.

(Edit: I should modify my comment about the G650 and other large bizjets to say something more along the lines that I DO aspire to fly those, very much so, however I understand that since I would be coming to the game a little late at the age of 40 with essentially no flight experience, that I may never be able to get enough hours to move into those types. Just trying to be realistic about what I could achieve should I make this move.)

Nope, I'm not a regional pilot. I think it's funny that you are already negotiating working holidays. Hint: you WILL be working holidays.

I love my job.

I work for a very small company that has a GREAT founder/president who advocates for our aircraft and their positive contribution to the bottom line. I don't work holidays and typically only 10-14 total weekend days per year. My wife & son are invited along any time there are seats open. I fly fairly new equipment that is impeccably maintained. I stay in hotels of my choosing, eat whatever I want to eat, and don't get expenses micromanaged. I get the option to airline home for long trips (doing so tomorrow in fact), and about half the time we're told to repo the jet home despite it costing a LOT more than airline tickets. I typically have <24hr notice for a trip maybe once a year, and have only gotten one "We've got to be airborne 10 minutes ago" call in the 4 years I've been here and that was because the boss's daughter was rushed into the ER on the other side of the country with an aneurism (she thankfully is okay).

But I know more folks that are flying the HMFIC to vacation homes seemingly every weekend and holiday, with what I would consider a miserable quality of life, than pilots with a schedule similar to mine.

All that said, there are lots of unemployed/underemployed corporate & charter pilots out there right now. Many folks who are flexible with there they move and have desirable type ratings or, more importantly, a strong network, have been able to find work but some have not.

Even the most entry-level of corporate jobs typically want 2500hrs and an ATP as bare minimums. Some companies and charter operators will hire with less, but that's the exception not the norm. With 100 hours, the OP will have a LONG way to go.

Keep building time, and start developing your network...but to make such a jump at this point you'll likely need to bite the bullet and do something that might be 'less desirable' like fly for a regional, tow banners, fly freight, etc.

Good luck!

Sigh. Where am I negotiating holidays? All I implied was that I understand that corporate types do fly on holidays, and I am okay with that. Underlying that was also the assumption that they don't fly EVERY holiday, like most of the low- and mid-seniority regional and major pilots, but if I was incorrect in that assumption, then I wanted to hear about it.

BoilerUP's answer is more along the lines of what I was hoping to get. Not all glossy great news, but an educated, realistic look at his/her particular situation, with the acknowledgement that not every corporate gig is going to be like theirs.

And I more or less assumed what Boiler's conclusion would be... it'll be a bit of a slog to achieve my goal. Especially if I just up and quit what I am doing now and went full-in... which I would not be able to do.

Steve,

Where do you live and would you be willing to move? I did the regional thing for four years and it was ok but the corporate gig is much better! In November I worked four days and had two overnights. Now that was a slower than normal month, but on average I would say I work 10-12 days a month and have only two overnights a month. Like Boiler said, even though I am "on call" we have three pilots for one airplane, so when someone needs a day or two off we just keep the other guys in the loop so at least two of us are always available. But so far in my time here the shortest call out I have had has been two days because we usually have our schedule a week in advance. Just keep in mind that not all corporate gigs are created equal. It all comes down to who you know and where you live or are willing to move to. Hope it helps.

That does help... thanks.

I live in St. Louis, with two very active biz airports (KCPS and KSUS) less than a 15 minute drive from my house. In fact, the approach for KCPS 12R goes right over my house... Gulfstreams, Lears, and GA over my house all day long. In addition, I work for a company that has at least on Gulfstream, but past that, I know nothing about our flight department.

My wife and I are willing to move. She's in HR, so she can go anywhere, and right now I am a web developer/designer, so for the most part, I can live anywhere. Moving is a ways down the road... have to become even remotely qualified, first, but we'd definitely be open to it.

So my two weaknesses are obviously experience and networking. I need to figure out a way to get 2500TT and hobknob with the right elbow-rubbers in very short order. :)

I love my job also...

Boiler Up said it all well and I agree with him on the lifestyle, I would not like airlines myself as all my airline friends work much harder than me. I like time off.

I have been fortunate to have only worked ONE holiday (this Thanksgiving) in my last 6-7 years. I started off in a 135 outfit flying Learjets...guess what? 135 pilots fly holidays. Charter is just that way.

Best advice I can ever give (and always do) is dont bother getting into this game unless you want to LIVE WHERE THE JOBS ARE. I simply know NO unemployed, qualified corporate pilots near me. In fact, I know its very difficult to even find good people. I know marginally qualified people in depressed areas who have been out of work 3 years. Its all about location.

If you do get into it, work like mad right out of the gate to get through the time building, harder jobs ASAP.

The right corporate job can be a great lifestyle. You wont get rich....think 125-200K in the better equipment...but the time off and job itself? Hard to beat!

Good Luck.

A corporate job is like getting married--be careful. You need to know the personalities, the company what they do and fly and whether it fits your temperament. Remember, you will be spending a fair amount of time with them. My advice is a department with at least 7-10 pilots, makes for some variety. Good companies still offer pay and benefits that far exceed the regionals and even some of the majors. In round numbers on a Global, it's about DL 767 CA pay. If, big IF, you like or can stand international work.

That said, you have a very steep mountain to climb to get a corporate job. Basic licenses, then some gig to get 2000 hours and at least 500-750 hours of PIC time. In bad times, to boot.

GF

I've seen this theme repeated again and again around here... people complaining about making between $80K and $120K or so. I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like a pretty damned good living to me. My wife and I each make ~$70K, and we are quite comfortable, and have savings to boot. Do I drive a $60,000 BMW, have the latest 72" TV, a 4,000 square foot McMansion and a house on the lake? No... but we do have a very comfortable 4/3 house in the city, two nice cars, etc.

Would I be happy with $125K-$200K? You bet your butt I would be... that's about twice what I make right now. Which is why I stated in the other thread that I'd be happy at this point flying a BE350 for a small corporate outfit for about the money I am making now. It's not completely about the money for me, although I will absolutely take ALL I can get!

The money is actually a primary concern for me... as in, can I get back to making the money I am making now in relatively short order? How long will it take for me to get to that point, and can I continue working full time in this job while I try to get there? Those are the questions swimming in my head. I've seen over and over that I need minimum 2,000 hours, and I would presume that much of that needs to be TT. Have no idea how to do that without doing some regional work, which, from what I've read around here, does not appeal to me at all, and certainly would not appeal to my wife.

That's the problem, Steve, about the only way to get the time nowadays is at regionals. And, at regionals it is very hard to get PIC time, without which getting a corporate job is nigh impossible. You mention King Air jobs, well, they are mostly single pilot, so you need to have a record of command time. Good corporate jobs don't turnover very often and when they do, hiring is word of mouth. I just got off an airliner and got asked if I was interested in a job. I'm not, but I'm sure they are filled already.

Corporate is very good, but hard to break into. The regionals or the 135 guys like Ameriflight is for young kids who don't have a life but flying and can live out of car. Until I was 35 I didn't own anything that couldn't fit in a Ford Pinto--cheap and easy to move on.

GF

Well....think twice about this...because I (and many others here) worked about 8 days a week for years to qualify for the "cushier" jobs....this was possible because I had no wife/family. Not many people would put up with that lifestyle for as long as it will take you to get there.

Again...Good luck in whatever you decide!!

A job like this isn't very common and it would take quite a few years for you to even be considered competitive. And in those few years you'd be working more than not. Then there would be the networking aspect. The chief pilot's friend will have a leg up on you. So what you would want to do is network as much as possible, and I mean sincere networking. Nothing worse then the guy that only calls or answers your call when he needs something. Now some great jobs have been known to go to low time guys that had the right connections, but i wouldn't bet the family fortune on that happening.


If you go about aviation part time i'd guess that you'd prolong achieving the ultimate goal by 4 times as long. I was told expect it to take 10 years to make over 100k and it was about right on for me. Again some lucky SOBs had it easier and I am sure some poor soul had it way harder than me. Never can tell in this industry. Now I have what I consider a good job, but it is far from great. I fly owner and charter trips. For example I have been in S.America for 10 days which has be fun but I wouldn't mind heading home tomorrow. best of luck

Hi Steve,

There's just no way to get what you are aspiring for unless you pay your dues like the rest of us. I'm not trying to sound like an a-hole by any means but the fact is you will need at least a couple thousand hrs to come close to landing a 70k gig. And the best way to build that time is to become a CFI at a busy flight school and then go to a regional/charter outfit ASAP. Yes, the pay sucks at both jobs but you have no other options to gain flight experience. Florida is a great start for the CFI route (I personally flew my butt off at Ormond Beach Aviation). Apply to regionals as soon as you meet the mins and find one that has the quickest upgrade times. Also, I will agree with what everyone has already said, but I want to expand on the networking idea....you need to call these companies at your airports tomorrow! Get ahold of the CP's and ask to visit the hangars. Try to meet as many of their pilots as possible. You have to sell yourself. That is really the ONLY thing that matters in this game. It will make a great impression if you meet a CP and show a sincere desire to work there someday. Stay in touch and send resumes frequently, even while you are building time. Again, your eagerness, sincerity, and ability to fit in with the Flight Department's lifestyle are the true deciding factors here. Become friends with these companies.

The only real question is, how bad do you want this? It is attainable, for sure, but you have to work for it and you will definitely need a bartending gig along the way for supplemental income :)

I wish you all the best and hope you get there someday. Good luck!

Thanks all for the great words of wisdom. Based on some of the stuff I've seen here since lurking for the past week or so, I was expecting a bunch of one-liner snarkiness. :)

I'm definitely aware of the need to pay dues to get the good jobs. Nothing in life comes easy (unless you are rich... and I'm not), and that seems doubly true in the aviation world.

I'll be closely evaluating all the good wisdom you've shared and start making some phone calls to folks here at KCPS and KSUS. Between Anheuser-Busch, Edward Jones, Wells Fargo, Ralston-Purina, Enterprise, and the truckloads of millionaires we have in town, I'm sure there are plenty of people to talk to.

Well you asked for it, so here goes:
If you plan on flying for the Regionals, do you like the wife you currently have?

Seriously though, I work for a 142 school and provide training to at least 2 of those companies you mention (probably others, but I've had direct contact with two). Pretty close knit, all the pilots are pretty high time, and if they even advertise a job, they have someone already in mind when the write the job requirements. Point is, not to discourage but these may be a little high up the food chain at your current experience level. You may get stonewalled trying to get to the chief pilot. Again, direct experience with these guys.

Avg pilot pay is 70 - 80k that's average so ask yourself are you prepared to make well below this marker for the next 8-10years. Keep in mind working weekends/holidays etc.

80k isn't too bad...I think the bitterness settles in when people consider all the sacrifices they made/make (schedules that don't coincide with society in general) to continue with that wage.

I started my PPL in 03. Im at the regionals now. My first year I made 22k. I've been here 4 years and holding a line making 45k. I have about 3800TT and about 3200 of it is 121 jet. Im still looking for that 70k+. I got hired at the regional with 660hrs but you might not be so lucky with the new 1500hr to get hired rule coming into affect soon. However, there will be a lot of movement in the near future due to retirements so you might be able to get on with a regional fairly quickly if get your rating knocked out fast. Plan on not having money for long time. Also, if you don't like to be away from home then you need to stay where you are and just fly for fun. At my airline you will have 10 days off a month on reserve. Im getting about 12-13 days off a month. Sounds like a lot but you have to take into consideration commuting to and from work and you don't get to come home every night at 5pm and take care of things around the house. So figure you have maybe two days a week to get things done. I can promise you your wife is not going to like it too much. She's ok with it now but your not gone on the road yet while shes at home alone with no one to hang out with. Plus don't bother planning anything on the weekends because your going to be at work. When your off everyone else is working. You won't really understand the lifestyle until you live it. The guys that have spoken here is not the average flying job. They are sitting in the top precent of the aviation career field. Making 100k+ a year is no less than 10 years away and thats if you have some connections. It's not easy. Not trying to be Debbie Downer but this is how it really is from day to day. Don't do this job for the money rather do it because you love to fly.

+1 !!
Sooo many folks want that *decent* corporate gig its not even funny. The steps to get there are filled with people willing to work like crazy for almost nothing. That does not set in until you are living it. My wife asked me for a divorce a couple years ago because the lifestyle was getting to her. I was a full time CFI and busy (in other words making 18K roughly with NO benefits and time off when the weather was lousy and I had no ground lessons), but NO ONE else was hiring, and no end seemed in sight (and I was straight up honest with what she was getting into when we were dating, but nobody ever expects aviation to be this way). Eagle was just hiring gang busters, and now what? Maybe furloughs(?). I hope not. Trans States is furloughing I believe....now people are tossing the f word around Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba...kinda doubt that one, at least in the near term, but the stability is clearly lacking.

If you can get a *good* 135 gig, it can be a good way around the regionals. 'Course you gotta have 1200 TT to even be considered. EDIT: I don't want to be all doom and gloom. Instructing was some of the greatest flying I have done. I still (usually) look forward to every flight :)

I wish you well, but I can understand what Ski Patrol is saying.

My advice to cut your teeth would be find a flight school that has a small 135 outfit. the busier the better. work your butt off and always network both with fellow intsrtuctors and students. a few students have actually been future owners of jets. You can then keep poking around for a better 135 as time goes on but always make a move in an upward fashion. don't go sideways for a few extra bucks. corporate is mostly right place right time, with a lot of networking. as for how crap the rise can be, well just read the posts again and then multiply some by 2. It is a roll of the dice. But you have to love it. I came close several times to giving up in my early days, but met too many guys that did give up and started singing the wish i would have blues. didn't want to be him. so keep firing at the target, you will hit it. also as someone said earlier, find a good corporate location geographically. i would recommend southern California, south FL, and North east. That is if you can afford it or stand living in those regions. I would say they have the highest concentration of corporate flying. secondary markets in my opinion would be Dallas, Chicago, Denver. Good Luck, it definitely will be a dog's breakfast for a while. hopefully luck will fall upon you quickly.

[QUOTE=SteveCostello;1094611]Sigh. Where am I negotiating holidays? All I implied was that I understand that corporate types do fly on holidays, and I am okay with that. Underlying that was also the assumption that they don't fly EVERY holiday, like most of the low- and mid-seniority regional and major pilots, but if I was incorrect in that assumption, then I wanted to hear about it."

Steve,

I've been corporate or fractional nearly all of my 24 years of flying - had 7 jobs on (1) airport (we think that might be a local record.)
I fly for a big fractional now - first schedule I've ever had in my career.

I always had another job lined up when one opportunity dried up - not because I'm all that but because (1) I knew the only sure thing with most small-medium company jobs is that the job will go away at some point, and (2) I always did my best for the guys I flew for, went way beyond the definitions of the job, and NETWORKED around the area. For me that was key.
I didn't mean to be negative in saying that they all WILL go away - but understand that for many companies the plane is a big expense and is often the first thing on the block when things hit the skids. Changes in ownership/management often bring about a different view of the company plane as well.

I think guys responded to your holiday comments because you used the words "most holidays." That made me chuckle too. You see, in my experience your corporate flying gig is a reflection of the company you word for, and it's principles. I worked for guys that gave me days or weeks of heads up, allowed my wife to come along on the vacation flights if there was a seat, and were really good to me. But I went above and beyond. One principle called my cell on Christmas Eve. Turns out he had been working so much (not unusual, these guys are driven) that he'd forgotten to get a Christmas tree for his home and family. He knew from passing conversations that I lived in a rural area with tree farms. Short of it, I slogged out into a friend's Christmas Tree field in the dark on Christmas Eve, found a nice tree, cut it, trimmed it, and hauled it up to his house in my pickup, and set it up for his wife and kids. For me this kind of thing was not terribly unusual. Corporate Pilot and ???

I also flew for a guy who would call at 2300 on Christmas Eve, gotta go 10 minutes ago because they WANT to go party in The Bahamas, and you'll be flying for the next 37 hours straight (duty times Part 91? Right....)
Ok, that guy was half nuts and is in jail now, but you get my point.

Holidays are sacred to them, and getting them and their family to wherever they want to go is VERY sacred to them. They will suffer issues with the flight on a business trip, but (and I have learned this at the fractional I fly for now as well) they will NOT suffer problems or disappointments when their family is involved or on-board. That's rule #1 in corporate. Those are your most important flights. Plan on working every major holiday, and if it doesn't happen like that you won't be disappointed. To me it's just a day, celebrate a different day. But then, we don't have kids...

In most smaller operations the schedule is what happens on the Blackberry on your belt. You're on a leash 24/7/365. Some principles honor vacations, some don't. I was building a horse barn on my vacation and had spent weeks getting a crew of friends and neighbors together to do it in a weekend - big barn raising, picnic lunches, the works.
Friday night at 1900, pager goes nuts. Boss wants to fly to Atlanta in the (Saturday) AM. "Can I get the relief pilot" I carefully ask?

"I don't WANT the relief pilot, I want YOU."

What are you gonna do? My friends and neighbors built my barn without me while I paced in a hotel in Hotlanta. That was tough.

I was fortunate to get into my first job with about 1000 hours and about 200 piston multi, but I knew the Chief Pilot well as he was also the local D.E. and I was a very active CFI at the time, and had done odd charter flying jobs for him when he had a certificate. I wouldn't advise sidestepping the CFI route - there is a lot to learn and you will make LOTS of contacts in your students, especially if you instruct at an FBO or school in an area where there is a lot of corporate activity. In corporate, its ALL who you know and who's back you scratch. Good luck!

:)

[QUOTE=ZeckJet800;1111153]
Not unusual?....the guy has as little respect for his own family as he has for you. Sad.

I am an employee, not family. Family is in the will. Very big difference.

The idea that I would leave my family last minute on xmas eve to go to work?.....well it better be an emergency....to cut down and decorate a tree for his family? LOL...wow.

[QUOTE=NowCorporate;1111261]Well, I didn't decorate it. That's a good thing... LOL

The respect for his family? I will just say "bingo" and leave it at that.
Other guys were great in that respect. Again the job varies, in my experience, as much as the principles do.

And whenever your cell phone rings and it's the CEO...well...it IS an emergency. If you want to tell him no, I hope your resume is current. No job protection in corporate.

My point for our new guy is that the expectations can depend on the owner, and of course on how willing you are to go the extra mile. It didn't bother me, it was a good gig and he did things for us too, we didn't fly very much, so in that respects it WAS a family environment.
But that said, it is a fine line - one guy owned lumber mills and asked me to come down and pull green chain at the mill when we weren't flying.
That wasn't going to happen.

Larger companies with larger flight departments will no doubt be different. Obviously my current job is different, but have still been known to drive an owner somewhere or help out in other small ways beyond flying. It's one of the things I enjoy about the job, but it may not be for everyone. My goal here was to share some corporate life with the original poster.

Steve,

Go talk to the pilots in your company's flight department. I know of a few guys that got flying jobs because they were already working in another capacity for the company. When the CP thought they had built up enough hours and a job opened up, they just switched departments. That would probably be the quickest way to a "decent" corporate job.

This is probably the best advice for your particular situation. Can you maintain your current job while doing your ratings and flight instructing on weekends?

Could you be happy with buying a small plane and just flying for fun? It is a lot to sacrifice (pay and life) to enter aviation at this stage in your life.

ZeckJet, welcome to APC and thanks for sharing. :) It was a good read.

Steve,

As others have suggested I would contact your companies flight department to see what the chances are of getting hired there. This is a "who you know" business, if you dont know anybody, you dont have much of a chance.

At Flight Safety last time,I met a guy who was hired to fly a Citation with 500 hours. He had worked the ramp for this company and they sent him to school as soon as he met insurance mins for the right seat. Now he's in a Challenger 300 with less than 1500 hours. This sort of thing happens but is very rare.

In my opinion the most important thing you have to consider is how this is going to effect your family. (Sorry, dont remember if you have kids or not) This businees can be brutal on your family life. You will miss many weekends, holidays and other important dates. You will almost certinaly have to move at least once. And your family income will be cut nearly in half for several years.

Is your wife a very independant person? Is she going to be willing to pick up alot of your slack because you're out of town? If not, this probably wont end well for your marriage. (Sorry, just being honest) I have known my wife since I was a student (she knew what she was getting into) She is very independant and it is still hard sometimes.

Looking at the financial end of this, consider: It's going to take you at least 5-7 years (maybe more, maybe never) to get to your present income level. That will make you close to 50 by the time this happens. Figure another 5+ years to make up the lost income of the first 5-7 years, your now in you're early to mid 50's. Your ratings are going to cost you 10's of thousands of dollars, tack on a few more years to pay for that. Now you're in your mid to late 50's (at best) before you break even financially. You will have maybe 10 years of higer income as a pilot. Thats assuming you dont lose your medical before you want to retire.


The corporate side of this business is far superior to the airline side (I've done both) but it is harder to break into. Also, the difference between a good job and a bad job is much larger in corporate. Also, there is very little job security. If the company decides to sell the planes, they dont have much use for the pilots. This never goes away no matter how much seniority you have. If it does happen, you will likely have to move again.

To get your foot in the door with your companies flight department I would suggest the following: Call up the Chief Pilot and offer to buy him lunch in exchange for his advise. Tell him your whole story and what your goals are. Ask him how he got to where he is. Be willing to help out around the hangar (for little or no compensation) this will show him you are serious and if you do a good job, will make him want to help you. Hanger floors always need to be cleaned. ;) This may sound a bit off-putting, but remember you are trying to take a HUGE career short cut here and your are going to need this guys help. The other thing to consider is, if he cant help you, he may know someone in the area who can.

If you can get your foot in the door with the flight department at your current company I would go that route. If that turns out to be a dead end, I would recomend you dont do this. The potential reward is not worth the risk to your income and family life.

Sorry to be a downer but, I have given your situation a lot of thought and this is what I really think. I have a very good job, but It took me +10 years of CFI'ing, delivering planes, Freight Dogging, crappy airlines, commuting, flying charter, etc to get here (and some luck and help form many friends) Still, for every pilot I know with a good job I know 2 that are unemployed or underemployed.

You have a decent job with a well above average income and a good family life. Dont risk that. 5 years from now I hope you are the manager of your current department, not living in a 1 bedroom appartment in West Virginia, flying cargo, making allamony/child support payments. (i'm thinking of a friend of mine)

Best of luck, no matter what you decide to do.