Being contactable - Part 91
07-16-2014, 05:34 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 834
Yep, That's why I mentioned it cause it happens! BTW, the rule of thumb for a yacht captain is 1K per foot per year, add more for bennies and experience. Additionally many captains on the smaller yachts (like a 90 footer) even perform a significant portion of the maintenance. Everyone likes to save money and it will reflect in your pay, if you let them...
08-10-2014, 07:02 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
If you have to manage the plane and logistics, you will find out that 250hr/year is actually quite a bit of work. Especially if the owner, or his wife, have certain idiosyncrasies, or if you have a meticulous attention to details, as you should as a corporate pilot.
Remember also that the bigger the plane, the bigger the bag.
The only way to have real days off will be to have at least three pilots, and have duty rotations.
Finally, airplanes owners are business men, and as such they do adhere to, and are familiar with, the bonding of written contracts. However the only way you can actually enforce a contract is by having a severance package language in it. That way they will be afraid to terminate you and have to pay you for your Golden Parachute, and you will have leverage to have the other clauses respected. All these perks are to easy to achieve. Good Luck.
Remember also that the bigger the plane, the bigger the bag.
The only way to have real days off will be to have at least three pilots, and have duty rotations.
Finally, airplanes owners are business men, and as such they do adhere to, and are familiar with, the bonding of written contracts. However the only way you can actually enforce a contract is by having a severance package language in it. That way they will be afraid to terminate you and have to pay you for your Golden Parachute, and you will have leverage to have the other clauses respected. All these perks are to easy to achieve. Good Luck.
08-11-2014, 06:15 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,259
[QUOTE=beech1980;1685469]
Keep in mind that many owners lease their aircraft out when not in use. If they are buying bigger they may well plan on the aircraft generating some income. 250 hours could go a lot higher.
Originally Posted by autopirate
I'm considering leaving my current airline job for a full time corporate position, but I have a couple concerns I need to address first. Hopefully somebody here can help me understand what the industry standard is for being contactable while not on a trip.
This will be for a family that only uses their current aircraft about 250 hours a year and usually knows the schedule months in advance. I have been working part time with them for the last 5 years and there have only been a few pop up trips. They are taking delivery of a larger aircraft in a few months that will need a full time crew.
I was thinking about writing something up in a contract that would specify how contactable I would need to be. For example, always be able to return a call within x hours and be within y hours of the airport. I would also include language to allow for some days that are completely free from all contact (vacation days).
Is this normal or am I completely out of line thinking I can have a life away from the cell phone with this job? I'm curious how others do it.[/QUOT
More people need to do that. I have worked in a family owned operation and because the last sucker let them walk all over the pilots that is what is expected... Giving the owners all the leverage will make you be a slave to the plane and always be on call with no hard days off. My old corporate boss always said "a day not flying is a day off". BS! If I cant go golfing and drink a few beers because I might have to fly then IM NOT OFF! Please make them pay you a fair salary! If they have the dough to buy a big jet they can pay you.
This will be for a family that only uses their current aircraft about 250 hours a year and usually knows the schedule months in advance. I have been working part time with them for the last 5 years and there have only been a few pop up trips. They are taking delivery of a larger aircraft in a few months that will need a full time crew.
I was thinking about writing something up in a contract that would specify how contactable I would need to be. For example, always be able to return a call within x hours and be within y hours of the airport. I would also include language to allow for some days that are completely free from all contact (vacation days).
Is this normal or am I completely out of line thinking I can have a life away from the cell phone with this job? I'm curious how others do it.[/QUOT
More people need to do that. I have worked in a family owned operation and because the last sucker let them walk all over the pilots that is what is expected... Giving the owners all the leverage will make you be a slave to the plane and always be on call with no hard days off. My old corporate boss always said "a day not flying is a day off". BS! If I cant go golfing and drink a few beers because I might have to fly then IM NOT OFF! Please make them pay you a fair salary! If they have the dough to buy a big jet they can pay you.
08-11-2014, 07:39 AM
#27
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: DH8D FO, CE-525 CA
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by NoSidNoStar
If you have to manage the plane and logistics, you will find out that 250hr/year is actually quite a bit of work. Especially if the owner, or his wife, have certain idiosyncrasies, or if you have a meticulous attention to details, as you should as a corporate pilot.
Remember also that the bigger the plane, the bigger the bag.
The only way to have real days off will be to have at least three pilots, and have duty rotations.
Finally, airplanes owners are business men, and as such they do adhere to, and are familiar with, the bonding of written contracts. However the only way you can actually enforce a contract is by having a severance package language in it. That way they will be afraid to terminate you and have to pay you for your Golden Parachute, and you will have leverage to have the other clauses respected. All these perks are to easy to achieve. Good Luck.
Remember also that the bigger the plane, the bigger the bag.
The only way to have real days off will be to have at least three pilots, and have duty rotations.
Finally, airplanes owners are business men, and as such they do adhere to, and are familiar with, the bonding of written contracts. However the only way you can actually enforce a contract is by having a severance package language in it. That way they will be afraid to terminate you and have to pay you for your Golden Parachute, and you will have leverage to have the other clauses respected. All these perks are to easy to achieve. Good Luck.
08-11-2014, 07:43 AM
#28
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: DH8D FO, CE-525 CA
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Bennies
Just out of curiosity is this a company owned aircraft or owner owned? What type of industry does the company work in?
08-11-2014, 06:39 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 124
Part 91, 2 airplanes (CJ3 / SR22) 2 pilots. We fly the CJ3 single pilot 90% of the time. Schedule is written as follows
Pilot A is primary Monday - Sunday.
Pilot B is secondary Monday - Friday. Must have 24 hours notice, and will not exceed 3 consecutive flying days during the secondary week. The Sat-Sun for secondary will be maintained as hard days off.
Alternate primary/secondary every week.
The schedule is great, and I rarely have to fly during my secondary week. I am grateful to have the above in writing, but I look at it as more for emergency. If I get called with less then 24 hours notice on my secondary week and it's not going to be a major burden, I will not turn down the trip on principle alone. More often then not I will do the trip. Because of that, it makes it a lot easier to turn them down every once in a while, in which case the pax will alter their schedule or we will hire a contractor.
I guess what i'm trying to get across is that when your in a small flight department, you don't have the same protections as being 1 of 2,746 other pilots. It's nice to have this stuff in writing for when you really need it, but if your turning trips down on principal when you are 1 of 2, you are likely going to find yourself looking for a new job, and rightfully so IMO.
Edit: In response to the question, how is he going to "enforce" the contract?
The schedule shouldn't just be in your contract, it should also be in your operations manual, which any Part 91 department worth a damn will have in place. *Possibly employee handbook too... Review the ops manual with the CEO so it is explicitly clear that this document contains best practices and absolutes that should be considered no different then the Federal Aviation Regulations, and have him sign off on it.
If it gets that bad then I guess you can quite, but even in an at will state, i'd think you have a pretty good case for wrongful termination if it's on the grounds of what was mentioned above.
Goodluck and welcome to corporate aviation. Enjoy East Hampton, Opa Locka, Aspen and Van Nuys =)
Pilot A is primary Monday - Sunday.
Pilot B is secondary Monday - Friday. Must have 24 hours notice, and will not exceed 3 consecutive flying days during the secondary week. The Sat-Sun for secondary will be maintained as hard days off.
Alternate primary/secondary every week.
The schedule is great, and I rarely have to fly during my secondary week. I am grateful to have the above in writing, but I look at it as more for emergency. If I get called with less then 24 hours notice on my secondary week and it's not going to be a major burden, I will not turn down the trip on principle alone. More often then not I will do the trip. Because of that, it makes it a lot easier to turn them down every once in a while, in which case the pax will alter their schedule or we will hire a contractor.
I guess what i'm trying to get across is that when your in a small flight department, you don't have the same protections as being 1 of 2,746 other pilots. It's nice to have this stuff in writing for when you really need it, but if your turning trips down on principal when you are 1 of 2, you are likely going to find yourself looking for a new job, and rightfully so IMO.
Edit: In response to the question, how is he going to "enforce" the contract?
The schedule shouldn't just be in your contract, it should also be in your operations manual, which any Part 91 department worth a damn will have in place. *Possibly employee handbook too... Review the ops manual with the CEO so it is explicitly clear that this document contains best practices and absolutes that should be considered no different then the Federal Aviation Regulations, and have him sign off on it.
If it gets that bad then I guess you can quite, but even in an at will state, i'd think you have a pretty good case for wrongful termination if it's on the grounds of what was mentioned above.
Goodluck and welcome to corporate aviation. Enjoy East Hampton, Opa Locka, Aspen and Van Nuys =)
Last edited by GrummanCT; 08-11-2014 at 06:52 PM.
08-11-2014, 08:24 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
What? 4 hard days off per month, and most of the times you fly trips in less call time that stated in your contract/ops manual?
Why even bother having such documents then?
And in your opinion a pilot that stick to his guns and want his schedule respected should righteously get fired? Really?
These statements are unacceptable, even for time builders, left alone for professional pilots.
This kind of attitude is what makes the corporate sector of the aviation industry the destination for pilots that never made it to a real job.
There are few good corporate jobs, but is up to all of us to raise our own bar.
Please, anybody entering the corporate world, don't give up on yourself.
Now of course, we will read about a bunch of guys; how good is their life at home, even with no hard days off at all, playing golf, staying with the kids, and when they do fly is just like a vacation trip, and the boss is like family, and the last minute call (almost) never arrives etc etc.
Bla bla bla.
Well, guess what? They are just barely content, and they won't admit that could be much better with real hard days off.
Deep inside they know it, they just won't admit it.
Unfortunately all it takes is few bad apples to ruin it for everybody else.
Pilots that think other pilots should be fired for abiding to their contracted scheduled days off. Pilots that never say no. These are the bad apples.
Thanks to them, having 10 days off a month in corporate world is a rare luxury.
Thanks to them, your cell phone is expected to be on 24/7.
Thanks to them, you will be "asked" to take your vacation during the annual.
Thanks to them, when you were flight available, but did not fly, you were "off".
Go ahead, lynch me, for what I care.
Why even bother having such documents then?
And in your opinion a pilot that stick to his guns and want his schedule respected should righteously get fired? Really?
These statements are unacceptable, even for time builders, left alone for professional pilots.
This kind of attitude is what makes the corporate sector of the aviation industry the destination for pilots that never made it to a real job.
There are few good corporate jobs, but is up to all of us to raise our own bar.
Please, anybody entering the corporate world, don't give up on yourself.
Now of course, we will read about a bunch of guys; how good is their life at home, even with no hard days off at all, playing golf, staying with the kids, and when they do fly is just like a vacation trip, and the boss is like family, and the last minute call (almost) never arrives etc etc.
Bla bla bla.
Well, guess what? They are just barely content, and they won't admit that could be much better with real hard days off.
Deep inside they know it, they just won't admit it.
Unfortunately all it takes is few bad apples to ruin it for everybody else.
Pilots that think other pilots should be fired for abiding to their contracted scheduled days off. Pilots that never say no. These are the bad apples.
Thanks to them, having 10 days off a month in corporate world is a rare luxury.
Thanks to them, your cell phone is expected to be on 24/7.
Thanks to them, you will be "asked" to take your vacation during the annual.
Thanks to them, when you were flight available, but did not fly, you were "off".
Go ahead, lynch me, for what I care.
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