Citation Latitude
 

We have an owner of a managed aircraft who is looking at a new Latitude. They have done a demo and seem to like the plane but we (the pilot group) have been hearing nothing good about it from talking to other operators?

Were trying to talk them into looking at other models and we believe there are way better aircraft out there for similar money!

Anyone on here flying one that can give some feedback on it?

A friend (not on this forum) flies one and has been very pleased with it; says it is "typical Citation" in many ways but does the job well, reliably, and comfortably for people in the back.

His biggest gripe is the Garmin avionics, vs. PL21...but that the Garmin gets the job done.

What other airframes do you want to look at?

Have heard there may be a demo on a Legacy 450

Really? Nothing good? What are the typical gripes so far? I haven't seen one up close but pictures of the cabin look impressive for the pax.

I actually took a close look at a Legacy 450 recently and I really liked it! Fantastic office up front with PL Fusion and the side sticks - and the cabin was great for the money. The Legacy 450 is a real gem for that price range. :cool:

From 2 operators I've chatted with I hear the same problems

Software issues
plane will not make "book numbers"
No support from "Mother Cessna"

The only good thing I've heard is that the passengers love the cabin and don't seem to notice the extra time enroute due to the agonizingly slow speeds! (not my words, their words)

What airframes did those two operators fly before the Latitude?

All Citation

One turned in a "classic Sovereign" for the Latitude and would go back to it in a heartbeat if they could

I believe the other operator was flying an Excel previously

We have operated a Latitude for just about a year. We also operate a Sovereign and G550. Without a doubt the Latitude has been the star. Not a single maintanance issue for months at a time. Biggest issue in a year has been a light bulb out. I will take the G5000 over the G550 avionics any day. It makes the G550 look old.

We have taken the Latitude on 45 hour Asia trips as far as Hong Kong out of the UA east coast and come back without a single write up.

It is in for the software update with performance etc. It will back flying and on schedule after just 5 days for the upgrade and itsannual maintenance. It is a Citation and you get all the good that comes with that. Performance is by the book. Not a M80 aircraft. Never meant to be. 5.7 hour legs can be done with 1.5 hours fuel real reserve.

For reliability and prediacatbility with a great cabin it can't be beat. It is not a Challenger 350 nor a G280 but is sure beats our Sovereign!

Anything reliable beats a Challenger 300/350.
Dave

What reliability problems have you had?

GF

Spoilers constantly, APU, leaking hydraulics,
Parts are a joke, everything shows up with a no fault found
on the repair tag. Of course I find it on the next flight.
2 year old airplanes with 1200 hrs.
I may be biased, flew Sovereigns for 8 years
that never broke.

We've been evaluating the Latitude and the Legacy 450 as upgrade candidates from the Phenom. With the downward pricing pressure on the 450, plus similar cabin size with higher cruise speeds (the Latitude cruises at the same speed as the Phenom, really?) and range, it's going to be hard to beat.

Personally, I was a big advocate for a Sovereign+, but I guess Cessna might be phasing that one out? Seems out of place between the Latitude and Longitude performance wise, but with a smaller cabin. Strange.

Good, I'm glad to hear some positive feedback on the Latitude! Personally, I'm pulling for the Legacy, It looks like a great airframe

Just another quick question, will the Latitude make Hawaii? I've heard of a local operator near us who took their "classic" first gen Sovereign to Hawaii a few times Part 91 but something about a "wet footprint"? I know absolutely nothing about crossing oceans so that's foreign talk to me!

Wet footprint means somewhere in the middle there is a time where the plane cannot land in the event of depresssurization (descent to F100) or in the event of an engine failure and driftdown to OEI cruise ceiling.

All overwater legs should be, and are for FAR 121 ops, with a dry footprint--in either event or a combination of events, sufficient fuel remains to continue or return from the ETP to land with appropriate reserves. I rather doubt the small Cessnas can make Hawaii "dry".

GF

Yeah and Cessna's sales literature just shows a range map showing we can take him to his home in Hawaii backed up from the sales rep telling him it will do it! Seems like I read somewhere that not even the first gen "classic" Falcon 2000's could do Hawaii legally?

I think Cessna has a large O2 bottle option allowing the Sovereign to make west coast-Hawaii without a wet footprint (even 135) as depressurization is the most restrictive performance issue.

Of course winds matter.

And I could be completely wrong...

In my last Sovereign recurrent my sim partner flew from Carlsbad (4900 ft runway) to Hawaii most every weekend. 1671 nm and no matter what the winds were he landed with at least 4000 lbs of fuel. We ran our Sovereign's
out to 2700 mm a couple times, Hawaii would be easy.
Dave

Thanks! Good to know!

Since it's 2207nm great circle KCRQ-PHOG, a bit longer to PHNL; I'm curious how he moved Hawaii something like 530 nautical miles closer?

Larger O2 bottles means the pax will be breathing on a hose above 13,000' for sometime--not the nicest experience.

GF

Opps, last time I trust ForeFlight on my way to Hawaii. :)
Dave

Just curious which type you ended up going with, if any? Our owners are currently debating between the Latitude and the Legacy 450 as well. We saw the Latitude a few months ago and got to check out the Legacy today. I agree, the Legacy was very impressive! To me it's a no-brainer to go with the Legacy.

Interesting discussion. Until recently I would have said: Legacy 450. Now I'm not so sure anymore. Recently got typed in the Latitude and must say it's pretty impressive not just "for a Citation". I think it has the right balance between simplicity and redundancy, a great cabin, excellent runway performance, good range and acceptable speed. It also uses all the proven systems from the Sovereign. Yes, it's not the most modern design, the non-powererd conventional flight controls feel quite heavy and it's not the fastest midsize jet. But I think the overall package is very good. I even think that the G5000 is really good now (latest software load 4.5 includes performance). Certainly better than the 3000 in the Phenom 300 and much, much better than the G1000 before that.

To be honest though: I don't know enough about the Legacy 450. I suspect it's a more complex design and it's clean sheet. My concern would be more potential teething problems. Other than that it looks like a beautiful machine.

Try loading bags on the Legacy's tail cone compt, then tell me how you like it.

GF

Good point, I did notice how high up the baggage compartment was. Definitely looked like it would be a two-man job getting the bags up there.

The Legacy is still pretty with fewer than 75 delivered, I understand it. You need a lot of options to match the equipment standard of the competition, which increases weight and decreases range somewhat. The FBW option is new but not a performance/weight saver as much as adding envelope protection and easier integration with the avionics. Collins Fusion is really nice, a step up from PL21 but I can't say about the G5000.

GF

There are lots of aircraft that will make it, assuming there's no engine failure or cabin decompression. That doesn't mean it be anywhere close to making it under those conditions.

I have a friend who is looking the Latitude, mostly for the 6' tall cabin and the ability to operate out of his own 3000' runway at reduced weights. Your thoughts guys? The airport is on an island in Lake Superior.

F224,

Not to be pedantic, but ask him the width of that 3,000' runway? Then ask if he knows the FAR 25 determination of Vmcg and FAR 150 runway width standards. After the blank stares, you can ask about the tread width plus the allowable 30' deviation during an engine failure at or near Vmcg vice the half-width of the runway.

GF

The runways is 75' wide and is rated up to 50,000 pounds. Another operator routinely operates a Citation X into the airport, strictly VFR. I get your certification on Vmcg question don't see how FAR Pt. 150 has anything to do with it?

Oops, sorry, meant FAA Advisory Circular 150-series, specifically /5300 Airport Design. While their are large numbers of 75' wide runways, the standard, both FAA and ICAO for planes with wingspans of less than 118' is 100'. I had to deal with narrow runway ops a lot in the past.

GF

The good thing is the owner is a relatively sophisticated buyer, having owned and flown several airplanes himself thought the years. Including a Cessna 337 that he put 5000 hours on flying himself over the years. We have had the discussions about what airplanes and conditions would be acceptable for operations off of his island airport. He knows it it's not a nice day, good vfr with light winds, we will be taking the ferry to the mainland.

Thanks for the clarification.

I know its been a few years...but I was wondering how they get around the ability to land within 180 minutes on standby Instrument requirement. Using June winds it says we can go from OAK to HNL, but the OEI and decompress at ETP show we can make it to an airport with 200lbs on landing (decompress)...but the flight times are 3.5 hrs (OEI) and 4.1 (decom) to get there??

Hawaii includes Hilo. The flight time is less and the reserves are better than Honolulu. Also, you may need to adjust the parameters with your trip planning provider for things like for drift down altitude and SE cruise speed and altitude to make the numbers all work. We found they used canned 280kt TAS SIngle Engine and immediate descent to 10,000 feet for depressurization. These can be modified as the aircraft performance is far better than that.

Interesting to hear this. I thought the G550 was a fairly up to date avionics platform. What doesn't it do that the G5000 does?

RalphF
www.GMTPilots.com