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Old 06-13-2021, 11:35 AM
  #171  
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https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/huma...ndemic-threat/


An excerpt:

analysis circulated at the 2017 meeting for the Biological Weapons Convention, a conservative estimate shows that the probability is about 20 percent for a release of a mammalian-airborne-transmissible, highly pathogenic avian influenza virus into the community from at least one of 10 labs over a 10-year period of developing and researching this type of pathogen. This percentage was calculated from FSAP data for the years 2004 through 2010.

Analysis of the FOIA NIH data gives a much higher release probability—that is, a factor five to 10 times higher, based on a smaller number of incident reports.

While there is no obvious reason in the NIH data that would explain this high probability, exposures and latent (not-active) infections with M. tuberculosis was indicated in four incident reports. M. tuberculosis is not a select agent so incidents involving it would not necessarily be reported to the FSAP. Tuberculosis is highly contagious by the airborne route, so it might be easier to acquire a TB infection in the lab. Unfortunately, airborne TB infections might be a harbinger of what could occur in research on airborne-transmissible flu.

Facility-reported descriptions of the 11 relevant incidents are provided in the Supplementary Material (Appendix 2). Lab-acquired infections are often discovered some time after the incident occurred. Only for three were the causes confirmed to be human error. For the other eight, neither the infected lab workers nor facility officials knew how the infection occurred. While it is likely that human error was involved in many of these eight infections, their causes will never be known.
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Old 06-13-2021, 12:02 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by Nantonaku View Post
That isn't even close to happening. It was spoken in absolutes for months that there was no way, no how the virus could have leaked.
Read what I said in the second post of this thread a year ago.

Originally Posted by Nantonaku View Post
Now when the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing to a lab leak and it is totally different, people just saying, "oh we need to investigate all possibilities."
Absolutely investigate all possibilities.

We'll just have to disagree that the evidence is "overwhelming" at this point.

Originally Posted by Nantonaku View Post
We now have evidence so why would it be a mistake to a least declare this is the likely scenario?
I don't think it's a "likely" scenario, or an unlikely scenario, just don't have enough info either way and I haven't seen definitive info from sources other than FB and the blogosphere.

The challenge is how do we come to a definitive conclusion? Beg and plead Beijing to cooperate (they probably already know, either way)? Or use intel-style means to pry at the edges and hope we don't cause the CCP clam to close up tighter than it already is?

Originally Posted by Nantonaku View Post
What article/evidence have you seen that says otherwise?
Occam's razor. Humanity has been subject to epidemics and pandemics for hundreds of thousands of years, and essentially all of it came from nature. So there's a precedent hinting that nature should not be ruled out.

Also the relevant science community has been warning of exactly such a natural outbreak (amplified by human mobility in the jet age) for years.

I did over three decades in the .mil, am not a socialist or Panda hugger by any means. Just trying to be an objective observer.
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Old 06-14-2021, 06:44 AM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post


Occam's razor. Humanity has been subject to epidemics and pandemics for hundreds of thousands of years, and essentially all of it came from nature.
And for what percentage of those hundreds of thousands of years have scientists actually been experimenting with viruses in laboratories? I mean, one can scarcely Occam’s razor those years when viral laboratories did not even exist, can you? That would be akin to saying the Apollo astronauts couldn’t have walked on the moon because in the hundreds of thousands of years before, no one had ever walked on the moon. If you are using Occam’s razor on a technical issue, you need to use only a timeframe when the technology existed to make the thing possible.

So do you want to base your historical data on way back in 14 May, 1796 when Edward Jenner started playing with smallpox (and we know there have been multiple inadvertent releases of smallpox from laboratories and far more inadvertent spread of Vaccinia)? Or the 1880s when Pasteur was playing with rabies? Or even more recently when a lab error at the Cutter laboratories led to 40,000 cases of polio - with 200 kids paralyzed and 10 deaths? Or the SARS lab caused deaths the Chinese actually admit to?

I think if you use Occam’s razor with an appropriate timeframe it points directly TO the Wuhan lab. How many other laboratories with known and well documented deficiencies in their containment systems were actually playing with COVID-related viruses?
Whether it was inadvertent release of a natural virus under study or inadvertent release of an artificially modified (gain of function) virus remains to be seen, as does whether it will ever be provable either way.
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:05 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
And for what percentage of those hundreds of thousands of years have scientists actually been experimenting with viruses in laboratories? I mean, one can scarcely Occam’s razor those years when viral laboratories did not even exist, can you? That would be akin to saying the Apollo astronauts couldn’t have walked on the moon because in the hundreds of thousands of years before, no one had ever walked on the moon. If you are using Occam’s razor on a technical issue, you need to use only a timeframe when the technology existed to make the thing possible.

So do you want to base your historical data on way back in 14 May, 1796 when Edward Jenner started playing with smallpox (and we know there have been multiple inadvertent releases of smallpox from laboratories and far more inadvertent spread of Vaccinia)? Or the 1880s when Pasteur was playing with rabies? Or even more recently when a lab error at the Cutter laboratories led to 40,000 cases of polio - with 200 kids paralyzed and 10 deaths? Or the SARS lab caused deaths the Chinese actually admit to?

I think if you use Occam’s razor with an appropriate timeframe it points directly TO the Wuhan lab. How many other laboratories with known and well documented deficiencies in their containment systems were actually playing with COVID-related viruses?
Whether it was inadvertent release of a natural virus under study or inadvertent release of an artificially modified (gain of function) virus remains to be seen, as does whether it will ever be provable either way.
Quite right, Occam's razor would point to an accidental leak from the Wuhan lab.

If you are fishing in a waterway in southern Georgia and catch an strange African Cichlid and there is a tropical fish hatchery in the area that in fact breeds hybrid tropical fish, it’s a good bet it came from said hatchery and did not spontaneously evolve in that creek.

The same can be said of this virus. The rules of logic at some point must point to this hypothesis, which probably can never be proved at this point, but would be the natural likely conclusion that applying the Occam’s Razor philosophy.
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Old 06-15-2021, 09:44 AM
  #175  
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John Stewert on Colbert on the Wuhan novel Coronavirus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfejgwbDQ8
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Old 06-15-2021, 08:17 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by Desdi View Post
Quite right, Occam's razor would point to an accidental leak from the Wuhan lab.

If you are fishing in a waterway in southern Georgia and catch an strange African Cichlid and there is a tropical fish hatchery in the area that in fact breeds hybrid tropical fish, it’s a good bet it came from said hatchery and did not spontaneously evolve in that creek.
But we weren't fishing in Georgia, coronaviruses are endemic in the wild in the wuhan region, and known potential vectors existed via the wet markets... that's WHY the wuhan lab is located where it is. Also that was how SARS got loose.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...me-from-nature
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Old 06-15-2021, 09:24 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
But we weren't fishing in Georgia, coronaviruses are endemic in the wild in the wuhan region, and known potential vectors existed via the wet markets... that's WHY the wuhan lab is located where it is. Also that was how SARS got loose.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...me-from-nature
That’s indeed how SARS got loose…the FIRST TIME.



The second time was human error.


that sort of reduces Occam’s razor to a coin flip.
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Old 06-16-2021, 06:47 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by Nantonaku View Post
John Stewert on Colbert on the Wuhan novel Coronavirus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfejgwbDQ8
Where was he last year with this?
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:01 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by Stryker172 View Post
Where was he last year with this?

It’s a super good question. Impossible to find anything other than his latest appearance on the Daily Show with a couple different Google search subjects


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Old 06-18-2021, 12:44 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
But we weren't fishing in Georgia, coronaviruses are endemic in the wild in the wuhan region, and known potential vectors existed via the wet markets... that's WHY the wuhan lab is located where it is. Also that was how SARS got loose.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...me-from-nature
The bats are in Asia but not particularly close to Wuhan. Thailand is thought to be a likely location of bats carrying similar viruses but it is 1,300 miles from Wuhan. It would be far far more likely that the disease would break out in any other city in Asia probably closer to large bat populations. It is highly improbable with all the meat markets in Asia that it happens to be Wuhan and literally blocks from the Wuhan Institute of Virology that is the suspected outbreak location.
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