Lockdown Part 2
11-03-2020, 07:57 AM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,538
Originally Posted by All Bizniz
No country will be humming along like nothing ever even happened for a very long time, as this pandemic has resulted in a paradigm shift.
You're arguing about the tree, and missing the forest.
You may choose not to believe China's numbers, but you don't need to rely on numbers to see that normalcy is returning to the cities. It is obvious and easily verified by the casual observer, let alone by foreign professional journalists. That was the crux of my point..
I think they will maintain their infection rates at a low enough level to get on with their lives until the vaccine becomes widely available, because whether voluntarily or forced, they are doing what's required to combat the virus.
You're arguing about the tree, and missing the forest.
You may choose not to believe China's numbers, but you don't need to rely on numbers to see that normalcy is returning to the cities. It is obvious and easily verified by the casual observer, let alone by foreign professional journalists. That was the crux of my point..
I think they will maintain their infection rates at a low enough level to get on with their lives until the vaccine becomes widely available, because whether voluntarily or forced, they are doing what's required to combat the virus.
You can't trust their numbers. I can't be more clear. They could be having 100,000 cases daily but they wouldn't let the information out. We can't possibly know whether they are having a problem or not. The numbers they reported in their first wave were a joke. The numbers now are no more reliable.
11-03-2020, 08:48 AM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 668
Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot
You can't trust their numbers. I can't be more clear. They could be having 100,000 cases daily but they wouldn't let the information out. We can't possibly know whether they are having a problem or not. The numbers they reported in their first wave were a joke. The numbers now are no more reliable.
Again, I am saying, even if you throw the numbers out, anecdotally, it can be seen that the population is going about their business as they did before, i.e businesses have re-opened, production has restarted, the supply chain is being re-established, people are socializing, traveling, the hospitals are not seeing an influx of Covid patients, etc..
Unlike our country, the Chinese government recognizes -like most other world governments- how socially, economically and financially disruptive this virus can be if not fought on a national level. You can't hide those efforts once they are underway.
China controls the media, but this is not the China of the 1900s. It is not as closed as you think. Information like this will get out thanks to the internet, investigative journalists and the fact that many foreign governments have their intelligence apparatus operating there.
Reputable journalists and news organizations around the world don't just report stuff like this without verifying and corroborating the information from more than one source.
I haven't read any organization disputing the fact that China is returning to normal having gotten the virus under control.
Last edited by All Bizniz; 11-03-2020 at 09:07 AM.
11-03-2020, 09:05 AM
#143
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,538
Originally Posted by All Bizniz
Are you not understanding what I wrote, or are you raising the same questions after I address them just to be argumentative? lol
Again, I am saying, even if you throw the numbers out, anecdotally, it can be seen that the population is going about their business as they did before, i.e businesses have opened, production has restarted, the supply chain is being reestablished, people are socializing, traveling, the hospitals are not seeing an influx of Covid patients, etc..
Unlike our country, the Chinese government recognizes -like most other world governments- how socially, economically and financially disruptive this virus can be if not fought on a national level. You can't hide those efforts once they are underway.
China controls the media, but this is not the China of the 1900s. It is not as closed as you think. Information like this will get out thanks to the internet, investigative journalists and the fact that many foreign governments have their intelligence apparatus operating there.
Again, I am saying, even if you throw the numbers out, anecdotally, it can be seen that the population is going about their business as they did before, i.e businesses have opened, production has restarted, the supply chain is being reestablished, people are socializing, traveling, the hospitals are not seeing an influx of Covid patients, etc..
Unlike our country, the Chinese government recognizes -like most other world governments- how socially, economically and financially disruptive this virus can be if not fought on a national level. You can't hide those efforts once they are underway.
China controls the media, but this is not the China of the 1900s. It is not as closed as you think. Information like this will get out thanks to the internet, investigative journalists and the fact that many foreign governments have their intelligence apparatus operating there.
Whatever you think the impact of the virus is or will be, you have to work within the framework of our constitution and any efforts to go around that will result in ugly things. The US is not like any other country in the world. In basically any other country central decision makers make the call on lock downs, masks, and medical responses. That is not the case here. The only thing you can do about that is to live in a state that is aligned with your views or work on getting elected. What China does has absolutely no impact on the US and is not a valid comparison, whether the information is accurate or not. If you wish to be in a country with the response you seek it would be easy to relocate. Portugal has a very nice climate and it is relatively easy to get a resident visa there.
11-03-2020, 10:40 AM
#144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 767/757 CA
Posts: 2,607
Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot
You don't seem to understand that our country is a republic. There will be no national lockdowns or mask mandates. Advocating for them is about as productive as pi**ing up a rope. Blaming a politician for the lack of a national response or advocating for a politician that claims he or she will implement them are both actions of a person who does not understand how our country works.
Whatever you think the impact of the virus is or will be, you have to work within the framework of our constitution and any efforts to go around that will result in ugly things. The US is not like any other country in the world. In basically any other country central decision makers make the call on lock downs, masks, and medical responses. That is not the case here. The only thing you can do about that is to live in a state that is aligned with your views or work on getting elected. What China does has absolutely no impact on the US and is not a valid comparison, whether the information is accurate or not. If you wish to be in a country with the response you seek it would be easy to relocate. Portugal has a very nice climate and it is relatively easy to get a resident visa there.
Whatever you think the impact of the virus is or will be, you have to work within the framework of our constitution and any efforts to go around that will result in ugly things. The US is not like any other country in the world. In basically any other country central decision makers make the call on lock downs, masks, and medical responses. That is not the case here. The only thing you can do about that is to live in a state that is aligned with your views or work on getting elected. What China does has absolutely no impact on the US and is not a valid comparison, whether the information is accurate or not. If you wish to be in a country with the response you seek it would be easy to relocate. Portugal has a very nice climate and it is relatively easy to get a resident visa there.
11-03-2020, 10:59 AM
#145
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 668
Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot
You don't seem to understand that our country is a republic. There will be no national lockdowns or mask mandates. Advocating for them is about as productive as pi**ing up a rope. Blaming a politician for the lack of a national response or advocating for a politician that claims he or she will implement them are both actions of a person who does not understand how our country works.
Whatever you think the impact of the virus is or will be, you have to work within the framework of our constitution and any efforts to go around that will result in ugly things. The US is not like any other country in the world. In basically any other country central decision makers make the call on lock downs, masks, and medical responses. That is not the case here. The only thing you can do about that is to live in a state that is aligned with your views or work on getting elected. What China does has absolutely no impact on the US and is not a valid comparison, whether the information is accurate or not. If you wish to be in a country with the response you seek it would be easy to relocate. Portugal has a very nice climate and it is relatively easy to get a resident visa there.
Whatever you think the impact of the virus is or will be, you have to work within the framework of our constitution and any efforts to go around that will result in ugly things. The US is not like any other country in the world. In basically any other country central decision makers make the call on lock downs, masks, and medical responses. That is not the case here. The only thing you can do about that is to live in a state that is aligned with your views or work on getting elected. What China does has absolutely no impact on the US and is not a valid comparison, whether the information is accurate or not. If you wish to be in a country with the response you seek it would be easy to relocate. Portugal has a very nice climate and it is relatively easy to get a resident visa there.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to invoke the constitution to me - lol, because I've never once advocated a national lockdown nor a mask mandate, but I do believe in the science of how to tackle the virus, of which those are only 2 of the tools in the arsenal. Lockdown by the way, should be a last resort, or an aggresive measure to reset a really bad situation.
In any case, I do think I know a little bit about how our republic functions so I'll indulge you. In a nutshell...The framers of our constitution deliberately made our political system of government a "messy" one with checks and balances between the three branches, and, in at least one - the congress - deal making, compromises and concessions are essential in order to get this country moving forward towards a more perfect union. The federal government have express jurisdiction over certain areas, and anything not expressly listed therein is considered to fall within the purview of state's rights. And I didn't have to Google that.. lol
If something is determined to be in the national interest, a good leader is required to be able to find a way to persuade his constituents, and the states that may not share his position, to somehow buy into it.. For all the limitations, US presidents still weild tremendous power and influence, and it's in it's skillfull and judicious application that he can achieve these objectives.
You don't need a national mask mandate to get a high level of compliance with mask wearing. What we needed was for it not to be politicized, and for POTUS to listen to his experts and throw his full weight behind it.
Sadly what we got was POTUS who in furtherance of his own political ambitions, choosing to ignore, and indeed undermine his own administration's public health official's recommendations for dealing with the pandemic, at the expense of the us, American people.
As for your assertion that China's actions should not influence what we should or shouldn't do; I'll just say that you can get to the same place through different mechanisms. From how you've been arguing this thing, it seems like if you and your enemy got bit by the same deadly snake, with both having access to the antidote, you would refuse to take it because he did, despite evidence that it helped him - simply because he's your enemy.
That rational seems silly, doesn't it? lol
Last edited by All Bizniz; 11-03-2020 at 11:32 AM.
11-03-2020, 11:29 AM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 644
Originally Posted by All Bizniz
Allllright! We're finally out of the earlier rut!
I'm not sure why you felt the need to invoke the constitution to me, because I never once advocated a forced national lockdown, nor a mask mandate but I do believe in the science of how to tackle the virus, of which those are only 2 of the tools in the arsenal.
In any case, I do think I know a little bit about how our republic functions so I'll indulge you. In a nutshell...The framers of our constitution deliberately made our political system of government a "messy" one with checks and balances between the three branches, and, in at least one - the congress - deal making, compromises and concessions are essential in order to get this country moving forward towards a more perfect union. The federal government have express jurisdiction over certain areas, and anything not expressly listed therein is considered to fall within the purview of state's rights. And I didn't have to Google that.. lol
If something is determined to be in the national interest, a good leader is required to be able to find a way to persuade his constituents, and the states that may not share his position, to somehow buy into it.. For all the limitations, US presidents still weild tremendous power and influence, and it's in it's skillfull and judicious application that he can achieve these objectives.
You don't need a national mask mandate to get a high level of compliance with mask wearing. What we needed was for it not to be politicized, and for POTUS to listen to his experts and throw his full weight behind it.
Sadly what we got was POTUS who in furtherance of his own political ambitions, choosing to ignore, and indeed undermine his own administration's public health official's recommendations for dealing with the pandemic, at the expense of the us, American people.
As for your assertion that China's actions should not influence what we should or shouldn't do; I'll just say that you can get to the same place through different mechanisms. From how you've been arguing this thing, it seems like if you and your enemy got bit by the same deadly snake, with both having access to the antidote, you would refuse to take it because he did, despite evidence that it helped him - simply because he's your enemy.
That rational seems silly, doesn't it? lol
I'm not sure why you felt the need to invoke the constitution to me, because I never once advocated a forced national lockdown, nor a mask mandate but I do believe in the science of how to tackle the virus, of which those are only 2 of the tools in the arsenal.
In any case, I do think I know a little bit about how our republic functions so I'll indulge you. In a nutshell...The framers of our constitution deliberately made our political system of government a "messy" one with checks and balances between the three branches, and, in at least one - the congress - deal making, compromises and concessions are essential in order to get this country moving forward towards a more perfect union. The federal government have express jurisdiction over certain areas, and anything not expressly listed therein is considered to fall within the purview of state's rights. And I didn't have to Google that.. lol
If something is determined to be in the national interest, a good leader is required to be able to find a way to persuade his constituents, and the states that may not share his position, to somehow buy into it.. For all the limitations, US presidents still weild tremendous power and influence, and it's in it's skillfull and judicious application that he can achieve these objectives.
You don't need a national mask mandate to get a high level of compliance with mask wearing. What we needed was for it not to be politicized, and for POTUS to listen to his experts and throw his full weight behind it.
Sadly what we got was POTUS who in furtherance of his own political ambitions, choosing to ignore, and indeed undermine his own administration's public health official's recommendations for dealing with the pandemic, at the expense of the us, American people.
As for your assertion that China's actions should not influence what we should or shouldn't do; I'll just say that you can get to the same place through different mechanisms. From how you've been arguing this thing, it seems like if you and your enemy got bit by the same deadly snake, with both having access to the antidote, you would refuse to take it because he did, despite evidence that it helped him - simply because he's your enemy.
That rational seems silly, doesn't it? lol
Also, the big American factories in China have been back to normal operations for a while now, just reference Tesla, Apple, etc. Elon Musk has some interesting insights.
Last edited by Duffman; 11-03-2020 at 11:55 AM.
11-03-2020, 11:52 AM
#147
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by Duffman
If seatbelt laws, speed limits, or DUI laws are a thing, I don't see why mask mandates would be 'unconstitutional' during a pandemic. I mean, I have good reflexes, I can safely drive 30 or 40 over the speed limit, why does the government have to limit me to the speed a semi truck can take a turn? It's my vehicle, my choice and it's unconstitutional that the government tells me how to control my property in public. People speed all the time and there are hardly any accidents and most accidents happen when people are driving close to the speed limit, and even then, less than 1% of car wrecks are fatal.
Also, the big American factories in China have been back to normal operations for a while now, just reference Tesla, Apple, etc. Elon Musk has some interesting insights.
Also, the big American factories in China have been back to normal operations for a while now, just reference Tesla, Apple, etc. Elon Musk has some interesting insights.
11-03-2020, 12:23 PM
#149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,171
Originally Posted by Duffman
There's a massive history of federal speed limits when necessary, including 55 on all highways in 1974 during the gas crisis.
11-03-2020, 12:41 PM
#150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 644
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
Actually, the double nickel was the ONLY and, hopefully, LAST Federal speed limit. And, it was “enforced “ be the states, imposed by the states or they wouldn’t get Federal monies for highway maintenance. The STATE DUI limit was imposed the same way—bribery. A couple of states held out for a long time. Not much massive history, really.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...20and%20Oregon
Regardless, the point is there is constitutional precedence for the federal govt to enact public safety laws, and certainly support, and even strong arm, certain public safety laws. I think Trump doesn't take the public health measures seriously. If you like what's going on, vote for him. If you don't, vote for the other guy. I'd rather people just own up to it than make excuses about how it's the states' sole responsibility.
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