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Old 11-22-2020, 06:28 PM   #11  
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Originally Posted by firefighterplt View Post
The rumor mill is already fierce.

“I’ve heard it causes sterility and birth defects.”

Most of the people I talk to are saying they want to wait on it. They think it was rushed. They’re getting their news from
Facebook.

I think that vaccine fear is going to significantly delay this recovery.
Think about all the babies that have been born to parents who took this vaccine. Excellent sample size.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:41 PM   #12  
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Yes! Here we go. The constitutional amendment on vaccines. Right next to the one on masks and right after the one that forbids public health considerations.

At what point did EVERYTHING on Earth rise to the level of a constitutional issue? Freaking EVERYTHING!!!
It is until the courts say it isn’t.

Historically, In 1905 the Supreme Court addressed mandatory vaccinations in regard to smallpox in Jacobson v Massachusetts [2]. There the Court ruled that the police power of a state absolutely included reasonable regulations established by legislature to protect public health and safety [2]. Such regulations do not violate the 14th Amendment right to liberty because they fall within the many restraints to which every person is necessarily subjected for the common good [3]. Real liberty for all cannot exist if each individual is allowed to act without regard to the injury that his or her actions might cause others; liberty is constrained by law. The Court went on to determine in Jacobson that a state may require vaccination if the board of health deems it necessary for public health or safety.

but that’s a115 year old law, predating even the 1927 Bell vs Buck decision allowing states to order the sterilization of epileptics, feeble-minded, and other societal undesirables, which would never survive scrutiny today. Increasingly, the SCOTUS has required a far higher standard, that of the LEAST RESTRICTIVE measures necessary to achieve the legitimate government purposes.




From the Journal of Constitutional Law:

Quote:
The three main standards of review track the responses to these three questions. Thus, under minimum rationality review, the legisla- tion only has to be rationally related to legitimate government inter- ests, and not impose irrational burdens on individuals." Under in- termediate review, the legislation must be substantially related to advancing important or substantial governmental interests, and not be substantially more burdensome than necessary to advance these interests.17 Under strict scrutiny, the statute must directly advance compelling governmental interests and be the least restrictive effec- tive means of doing so.
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cg...96&context=jcl

The issue that will be litigated in our litigious society is not whether or not there is a government interest in public health or ending an epidemic - that has long been established - but whether or not MANDATORY immunization is the least restrictive means of accomplishing that. That is always arguable but even more so with vaccinating in an attempt to achieve herd immunity where looking rationally - the first few individuals being immunized gain exceptional benefit (being susceptibles in an environment of massive risk of exposure) compared to the final few individuals who derive very little benefit (since they are largely surrounded by already vaccinated people and hence at low risk.)

it’s the old “free rider” issue that unions have to deal with in ‘right to work’ states and - yes, in this day and age - there is little doubt that it’ll go all the way to the Supreme Court.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:41 PM   #13  
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Originally Posted by Merle Haggard View Post
Yes! Here we go. The constitutional amendment on vaccines. Right next to the one on masks and right after the one that forbids public health considerations.

At what point did EVERYTHING on Earth rise to the level of a constitutional issue? Freaking EVERYTHING!!!
Why would we be doing things in the United States that aren't constitutional?? Are there constitutional blind spots where it's just a free for all? What are you saying?
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:51 PM   #14  
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it’s the old “free rider” issue that unions have to deal with in ‘right to work’ states and - yes, in this day and age - there is little doubt that it’ll go all the way to the Supreme Court.
This is the whole "free speech" thing all over again. Do you have free speech? Yes. You cannot be jailed for your views. But does that apply everywhere? No.

Now to vaccines. Can you be jailed for refusing a vaccine? No. But you can be denied incentives like we discussed. The $1500 stimulus payment for example. You can be denied entry into businesses, as they have a right to refuse anyone. You can be denied entry into foreign countries, which will impact your employability as an airline pilot.

Everyone goes straight to the Constitution and federal punishment as their argument for "MUH RIGHTS!" There's a whole spectrum of consequences to consider.

You wanna be outcasts? Fine. Be outcasts. But understand that the ramifications go well beyond the federal government.

There are plenty of carrots (and sticks) in the arsenal to encourage vaccine adoption. And none require the threat of jail.
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:51 PM   #15  
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Also I would guess rather quickly it will become required to cross borders.
The 121 community is not representative of the US population as a whole. A year ago, only 42% of eligible US citizens even had passports. That percentage has decreased since then since more have been expiring in the last year than new ones have been issued or expiring ones have been renewed.

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Research of 2,000 Americans across the country (a good statistical sample) in a new study conducted by market researchers OnePoll, and commissioned by travel luggage provider Victorinox, explored the nation’s travel experiences and the things that seem to stop people from exploring more.

The results are pretty amazing, and perhaps explain the gaps of knowledge many Americans seem to have of the world:

-- Eleven percent of survey respondents have never traveled outside of the state where they were born.

-- Over half of those surveyed (54 percent) say they’ve visited 10 states or fewer.

-- As many as 13 percent say they have never flown in an airplane.



-- Forty percent of those questioned said they’ve never left the country.

-- Over half of respondents have never owned a passport. (For years U.S. citizens did not need one to travel to Mexico, Canada and on many cruises, which may clarify the previous stat.)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealane...h=6628be142898
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:55 PM   #16  
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Nobody in the US (who is not mil) will be forced to get any vaccine.

Much of society may exercise it's freedom to not associate with people who choose not to get vaccinated.

If the courts didn't overturn MANDATORY covid lockdowns, they are not going to overturn it when organizations require vaccination for admission. We already had to show proof of vaccination of our kids for some youth activities... pre-covid.

If enough people get it voluntarily and quickly, and covid crawls back into it's hole maybe non-vaccinated people will be tolerated in public. We should have a better idea this time next year.

Last edited by rickair7777; 11-22-2020 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:06 PM   #17  
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With such a low death rate, somewhere around less than 1% especially for the low co morbidity crowd, I don't see why forced vaccinations are necessary in this case.

There's always going to be people who can't or wont get certain shots----ever, and even greater numbers who let their boosters lapse and essentially are as good as unvaccinated. A lot of these grandiose plans sound great but reality is a whole 'nother ball game.

Let the high co morbidity crowd get their shots ASAP but beyond that I dont see the "we need more government force to _____ " when again, the top dogs and their media champions dont seem to be taking covid that seriously themselves.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:14 PM   #18  
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Much of society may exercise it's freedom to not associate with people who choose not too get vaccinated.
Seriously? How would they know? Absence of vaccination doesn’t show. We could, I suppose, require them to wear a yellow cloth badge sewn to their clothes.... I know, not funny. But the point is this is an issue that is non-trivial and it’s going to quite possibly take a massive education campaign. And even then in certain populations. Amish and Orthodox Jewish for instance.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...stoked-measles

https://journals.lww.com/pidj/fullte..._amish.27.aspx


https://www.vox.com/2019/6/19/186819...accine-refusal
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:16 PM   #19  
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With such a low death rate, somewhere around less than 1% especially for the low co morbidity crowd, I don't see why forced vaccinations are necessary in this case.

There's always going to be people who can't or wont get certain shots----ever, and even greater numbers who let their boosters lapse and essentially are as good as unvaccinated. A lot of these grandiose plans sound great but reality is a whole 'nother ball game.

Let the high co morbidity crowd get their shots ASAP but beyond that I dont see the "we need more government force to _____ " when again, the top dogs and their media champions dont seem to be taking covid that seriously themselves.
Government won't force anybody, that will be the plaintiff's attorneys. Liability will be the driving factor and there's enough hysteria about this thing that it will probably fly politically. Unless the fed legislates covid liability away, but that's not what the tea leaves from the election say.
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:16 PM   #20  
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There’s no rules requiring your kids to be vaccinated just to go to school. No public school can force that on you as a requirement at least not where I live.
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