Ivermectin Not Effective
03-18-2022, 09:37 PM
#11
Gets Everyday Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: Relaxed
Posts: 6,937
Originally Posted by ugleeual
They didn’t apparently run the test study using the horse paste ivermectin… that stuff flies off the shelf.
2. I prefer dairy cattle Bag Balm for dry hands in the winter. Guess someone would have problems with me using something designed for a cow.
03-19-2022, 11:32 PM
#12
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,006
Originally Posted by TransWorld
2. I prefer dairy cattle Bag Balm for dry hands in the winter. Guess someone would have problems with me using something designed for a cow.
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
03-20-2022, 09:59 AM
#13
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
It isn't any surprise that Ivermectin doesn't work for severe Covid. Severe Covid is a runaway inflammatory response unrelated to viral load, we know that now. In fact, most people dying of Covid don't have the replicating infection anymore, their immune system is actually killing them several weeks later. Any vaccine will work for Covid, e.g. MMR, because what you need to keep yourself out of the hospital is concept called Innate Immune tolerance.
03-20-2022, 10:28 AM
#14
Gets Weekdays Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Economy Minus
Posts: 1,053
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Like milk? Its root use is for little cows.
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
03-20-2022, 02:59 PM
#15
Always Working
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Like milk? Its root use is for little cows.
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
03-20-2022, 03:19 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: MD88
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Like milk? Its root use is for little cows.
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
What we really need for all our safety is the FAA to require at least one non-jabbed on the flight deck at all times. Additionally all jabbed pilots should be required to complete a cardio stress test every 6 months. I rather you stroke out on a treadmill instead of in the cockpit.
03-21-2022, 08:36 AM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2020
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Like milk? Its root use is for little cows.
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
Of course, this isn't about a hand-rub. It's about using a drug meant for animals outside of it's role, to counter a virus...and the basis for hails from the rightwing conspiracy nuts and their talking heads, such as alex jones and tucker carlson (darling of the russian media).
When a scientific study is done (the largest one to date), the response from the apologists on the conspiracy side of the house remains the same: deny, dismiss, and diminish, and then with the least intelligent logic of all; straw man fallacies such as "I've seen studies that were wrong, so this study is/might/could be wrong. Cast doubt. Dismiss it. Set it aside. No scientific evidence to back up the use of ivermectin, no evidence whatsoever, but then the conspiracy world is about faith, isn't it?
It has to be, because when it comes to science, deny, dismiss, diminish. Only faith, and after all it came from the mouth of the prophet, tucker. It must be so.
He couldn't say it on TV if it weren't true, could he?
03-21-2022, 04:09 PM
#18
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,006
There is no evidence that Ivermectin has value for treating, or preventing Covid.
As a medication for humans, it's use is for treating river blindness and head lice. I'm quite aware of what it is, and I'm also quite aware that the lions share of what's being bought by the fools who take it based on the likes of tucker carleson and other talking heads, comes from veterinary sources. Also the reason that poisonings are at an increase.
Note that while the emergency notice below observed an increase from an average 3,600 prescriptions per week pre-pandemic, to 88,000 last fall. That's not counting the bulk of what's being obtained, mail order, and from veterinary sources. That's a lot of stupidity being documented right there. Especially given that for those who balk at well established vaccines and precautions...the same are ready to poison themselves on horse and headlice medicine with no applicability of evidence of viability with respect to Covid. Might as well throw some salt over the shoulder, for good luck. Or put blue light in your lungs. But, but, but...tucker carlson said it's okay. The prophet has spoken. (of course, the same guy who is darling of the russian media...so he's got that going for him. Which is nice).
Ivermectin poisonings are up 500%. Go figure. Perhaps Darwin was right, after all.
https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/2021/pdf/CDC_HAN_449.pdf
As a medication for humans, it's use is for treating river blindness and head lice. I'm quite aware of what it is, and I'm also quite aware that the lions share of what's being bought by the fools who take it based on the likes of tucker carleson and other talking heads, comes from veterinary sources. Also the reason that poisonings are at an increase.
Note that while the emergency notice below observed an increase from an average 3,600 prescriptions per week pre-pandemic, to 88,000 last fall. That's not counting the bulk of what's being obtained, mail order, and from veterinary sources. That's a lot of stupidity being documented right there. Especially given that for those who balk at well established vaccines and precautions...the same are ready to poison themselves on horse and headlice medicine with no applicability of evidence of viability with respect to Covid. Might as well throw some salt over the shoulder, for good luck. Or put blue light in your lungs. But, but, but...tucker carlson said it's okay. The prophet has spoken. (of course, the same guy who is darling of the russian media...so he's got that going for him. Which is nice).
Ivermectin poisonings are up 500%. Go figure. Perhaps Darwin was right, after all.
https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/2021/pdf/CDC_HAN_449.pdf
Rapid Increase in Ivermectin Prescriptions and Reports of Severe Illness Associated with Use of Products Containing Ivermectin to Prevent or Treat COVID-19
Summary
Ivermectin is a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved prescription medication used to treat certain infections caused by internal and external parasites. When used as prescribed for approved indications, it is generally safe and well tolerated.
During the COVID-19 pandemic, ivermectin dispensing by retail pharmacies has increased, as has use of veterinary formulations available over the counter but not intended for human use. FDA has cautioned about the potential risks of use for prevention or treatment of COVID-19.
Ivermectin is not authorized or approved by FDA for prevention or treatment of COVID-19. The National Institutes of Health’s (NIH) COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel has also determined that there are currently insufficient data to recommend ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19. ClinicalTrials.gov has listings of ongoing clinical trials that might provide more information about these hypothesized uses in the future.
Adverse effects associated with ivermectin misuse and overdose are increasing, as shown by a rise in calls to poison control centers reporting overdoses and more people experiencing adverse effects.
Background
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) confirmed with the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC) that human exposures and adverse effects associated with ivermectin reported to poison control centers have increased in 2021 compared to the pre-pandemic baseline. These reports include increased use of veterinary products not meant for human consumption.
Ivermectin is a medication that is approved by FDA in oral formulations to treat onchocerciasis (river blindness) and intestinal strongyloidiasis. Topical formulations are used to treat head lice and rosacea. Ivermectin is also used in veterinary applications to prevent or treat internal and external parasitic infections in animals. When used in appropriate doses for approved indications, ivermectin is generally well tolerated.
Clinical trials and observational studies to evaluate the use of ivermectin to prevent and treat COVID-19 in humans have yielded insufficient evidence for the NIH COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel to recommend its use. Data from adequately sized, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.
A recent study examining trends in ivermectin dispensing from outpatient retail pharmacies in the United States during the COVID-19 pandemic showed an increase from an average of 3,600 prescriptions per week at the pre-pandemic baseline (March 16, 2019–March 13, 2020) to a peak of 39,000 prescriptions in the week ending on January 8, 2021.1 Since early July 2021, outpatient ivermectin dispensing has again begun to rapidly increase, reaching more than 88,000 prescriptions in the week ending August 13, 2021. This represents a 24-fold increase from the pre-pandemic baseline. (Figure)
Figure: Estimated number of outpatient ivermectin prescriptions dispensed from retail pharmacies — United States, March 16, 2019–August 13, 2021*
*Data are from the IQVIA National Prescription Audit Weekly (NPA Weekly) database. NPA Weekly collects data from a sample of approximately 48,900 U.S. retail pharmacies, representing 92% of all retail prescription activity. Ivermectin dispensed by mail order and long-term care pharmacies, prescriptions by veterinarians, and non-oral formulations were not included.
page2image2854057968In 2021, poison control centers across the U.S. received a three-fold increase in the number of calls for human exposures to ivermectin in January 2021 compared to the pre-pandemic baseline.
In July 2021, ivermectin calls have continued to sharply increase, to a five-fold increase from baseline. These reports are also associated with increased frequency of adverse effects and emergency department/hospital visits.
In some cases, people have ingested ivermectin-containing products purchased without a prescription, including topical formulations and veterinary products. Veterinary formulations intended for use in large animals such as horses, sheep, and cattle (e.g., “sheep drench,” injection formulations, and “pour-on” products for cattle) can be highly concentrated and result in overdoses when used by humans. Animal products may also contain inactive ingredients that have not been evaluated for use in humans. People who take inappropriately high doses of ivermectin above FDA-recommended dosing may experience toxic effects.
Clinical effects of ivermectin overdose include gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Overdoses are associated with hypotension and neurologic effects such as decreased consciousness, confusion, hallucinations, seizures, coma, and death. Ivermectin may potentiate the effects of other drugs that cause central nervous system depression such as benzodiazepines and barbiturates.
Examples of recent significant adverse effects reported to U.S. poison control centers include the following:
Summary
Ivermectin is a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved prescription medication used to treat certain infections caused by internal and external parasites. When used as prescribed for approved indications, it is generally safe and well tolerated.
During the COVID-19 pandemic, ivermectin dispensing by retail pharmacies has increased, as has use of veterinary formulations available over the counter but not intended for human use. FDA has cautioned about the potential risks of use for prevention or treatment of COVID-19.
Ivermectin is not authorized or approved by FDA for prevention or treatment of COVID-19. The National Institutes of Health’s (NIH) COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel has also determined that there are currently insufficient data to recommend ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19. ClinicalTrials.gov has listings of ongoing clinical trials that might provide more information about these hypothesized uses in the future.
Adverse effects associated with ivermectin misuse and overdose are increasing, as shown by a rise in calls to poison control centers reporting overdoses and more people experiencing adverse effects.
Background
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) confirmed with the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC) that human exposures and adverse effects associated with ivermectin reported to poison control centers have increased in 2021 compared to the pre-pandemic baseline. These reports include increased use of veterinary products not meant for human consumption.
Ivermectin is a medication that is approved by FDA in oral formulations to treat onchocerciasis (river blindness) and intestinal strongyloidiasis. Topical formulations are used to treat head lice and rosacea. Ivermectin is also used in veterinary applications to prevent or treat internal and external parasitic infections in animals. When used in appropriate doses for approved indications, ivermectin is generally well tolerated.
Clinical trials and observational studies to evaluate the use of ivermectin to prevent and treat COVID-19 in humans have yielded insufficient evidence for the NIH COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel to recommend its use. Data from adequately sized, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.
A recent study examining trends in ivermectin dispensing from outpatient retail pharmacies in the United States during the COVID-19 pandemic showed an increase from an average of 3,600 prescriptions per week at the pre-pandemic baseline (March 16, 2019–March 13, 2020) to a peak of 39,000 prescriptions in the week ending on January 8, 2021.1 Since early July 2021, outpatient ivermectin dispensing has again begun to rapidly increase, reaching more than 88,000 prescriptions in the week ending August 13, 2021. This represents a 24-fold increase from the pre-pandemic baseline. (Figure)
Figure: Estimated number of outpatient ivermectin prescriptions dispensed from retail pharmacies — United States, March 16, 2019–August 13, 2021*
*Data are from the IQVIA National Prescription Audit Weekly (NPA Weekly) database. NPA Weekly collects data from a sample of approximately 48,900 U.S. retail pharmacies, representing 92% of all retail prescription activity. Ivermectin dispensed by mail order and long-term care pharmacies, prescriptions by veterinarians, and non-oral formulations were not included.
page2image2854057968In 2021, poison control centers across the U.S. received a three-fold increase in the number of calls for human exposures to ivermectin in January 2021 compared to the pre-pandemic baseline.
In July 2021, ivermectin calls have continued to sharply increase, to a five-fold increase from baseline. These reports are also associated with increased frequency of adverse effects and emergency department/hospital visits.
In some cases, people have ingested ivermectin-containing products purchased without a prescription, including topical formulations and veterinary products. Veterinary formulations intended for use in large animals such as horses, sheep, and cattle (e.g., “sheep drench,” injection formulations, and “pour-on” products for cattle) can be highly concentrated and result in overdoses when used by humans. Animal products may also contain inactive ingredients that have not been evaluated for use in humans. People who take inappropriately high doses of ivermectin above FDA-recommended dosing may experience toxic effects.
Clinical effects of ivermectin overdose include gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Overdoses are associated with hypotension and neurologic effects such as decreased consciousness, confusion, hallucinations, seizures, coma, and death. Ivermectin may potentiate the effects of other drugs that cause central nervous system depression such as benzodiazepines and barbiturates.
Examples of recent significant adverse effects reported to U.S. poison control centers include the following:
- An adult drank an injectable ivermectin formulation intended for use in cattle in an attempt to prevent COVID-19 infection. This patient presented to a hospital with confusion, drowsiness, visual hallucinations, tachypnea, and tremors. The patient recovered after being hospitalized for nine days.
- An adult patient presented with altered mental status after taking ivermectin tablets of unknown strength purchased on the internet. The patient reportedly took five tablets a day for five days to treat COVID-19. The patient was disoriented and had difficulty answering questions and following commands. Symptoms improved with discontinuation of ivermectin after hospital admission.
Recommendations for Clinicians and Public Health Practitioners
- Be aware that ivermectin is not currently authorized or approved by FDA for treatment of COVID- 19. NIH has also determined that there are currently insufficient data to recommend ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19.
- Educate patients about the risks of using ivermectin without a prescription, or ingesting ivermectin formulations that are meant for external use or ivermectin-containing products formulated for veterinary use.
- Advise patients to immediately seek medical treatment if they have taken any ivermectin or ivermectin-containing products and are experiencing symptoms. Signs and symptoms of ivermectin toxicity include gastrointestinal effects (nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea), headache, blurred vision, dizziness, tachycardia, hypotension, visual hallucinations, altered mental status, confusion, loss of coordination and balance, central nervous system depression, and seizures. Ivermectin may increase sedative effects of other medications such as benzodiazepines and barbiturates. Call the poison control center hotline (1-800-222-1222) for medical management advice.
- Educate patients and the public to get vaccinated against COVID-19. COVID-19 vaccination is safe and the most effective means to prevent infection and protect against severe disease and death from SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, including the Delta variant.
- Educate patients and the public to use COVID-19 prevention measures including wearing masks in indoor public places, physical distancing by staying at least six feet from other people who don’t live in the same household, avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces, and frequent handwashing and use of hand sanitizer that contains at least 60 percent alcohol.
Recommendations for the Public
- Be aware that currently, ivermectin has not been proven as a way to prevent or treat COVID-19.
- Do not swallow ivermectin products that should be used on skin (e.g., lotions and creams) or are
not meant for human use, such as veterinary ivermectin products. - Seek immediate medical attention or call the poison control center hotline (1-800-222-1222) for
advice if you have taken ivermectin or a product that contains ivermectin and are having symptoms. Signs and symptoms include gastrointestinal effects (nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea), headache, blurred vision, dizziness, fast heart rate, and low blood pressure. Other severe nervous system effects have been reported, including tremors, seizures, hallucinations, confusion, loss of coordination and balance, decreased alertness, and coma. - Get vaccinated against COVID-19. COVID-19 vaccination is approved by FDA and is the safest and most effective way to prevent getting sick and protect against severe disease and death from SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, including the Delta variant.
- Protect yourself and others from getting sick with COVID-19. In addition to vaccination, wear masks in indoor public places, practice staying at least six feet from other people who don’t live in your household, avoid crowds and poorly ventilated spaces, and wash your hands often or use hand sanitizer that has at least 60 percent alcohol.
03-21-2022, 04:48 PM
#19
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,463
Originally Posted by skywatch
Calling ivermectin (a Nobel-winning drug developed for HUMANS) a drug meant for animals shows your ignorance. That and ignoring the myriad studies that show ivermectin is an effective treatment and focusing on this one, apparently flawed study (at least with methodology open to criticism - the very definition of peer review).
03-22-2022, 04:08 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by Abouttime2fish
really? You do know there is ivermectin for humans that is not the paste you are talking about right? Won a Nobel prize? That stuff?? But keep to your propaganda.
What we really need for all our safety is the FAA to require at least one non-jabbed on the flight deck at all times. Additionally all jabbed pilots should be required to complete a cardio stress test every 6 months. I rather you stroke out on a treadmill instead of in the cockpit.
What we really need for all our safety is the FAA to require at least one non-jabbed on the flight deck at all times. Additionally all jabbed pilots should be required to complete a cardio stress test every 6 months. I rather you stroke out on a treadmill instead of in the cockpit.
TAlong those lines, what we really need are more stringent mental health standards to hold an FAA medical. Case in point….Anyway, talk about “propaganda”! Pot, meet kettle. Do you care to show any legitimate data to backup your suggestions? YouTube videos from credentialed, but estranged from the medical profession rogue whackos, et al. don’t count.
I’ll wait.
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