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C100 VBs

Old 06-29-2017, 04:21 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
If I were you I would go back and read the augmented ops section. It went on and on despite the fact that a little common sense would tell most pilots it was of very limited use. The same thing applies to VB's. Best case it's of limited use.
I was part of said conversation, and one of the ones that identified it to be of little use. It was killed much quicker than this because it was very simple due to the rest seat requirement, but you know... whatever makes you feel better about yourself. More needs to learned about VBs before just blowing them off and putting it to bed.
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Old 06-29-2017, 04:31 PM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
I was part of said conversation, and one of the ones that identified it to be of little use. It was killed much quicker than this because it was very simple due to the rest seat requirement, but you know... whatever makes you feel better about yourself. More needs to learned about VBs before just blowing them off and putting it to bed.
Hence the reason the union only agreed to a test.
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Old 06-29-2017, 04:50 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
Hence the reason the union only agreed to a test.

...and said test has not started but is continuing to be brought up by the company, hence the continued discussion.
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Old 06-30-2017, 03:03 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
If I were you I would go back and read the augmented ops section. You yourself posted it was going to cost jobs. It went on and on despite the fact that a little common sense would tell most pilots it was of very limited use. The same thing applied to the change in augmentation rules to Europe. The forum assured us everything was going two man. Never happened and in fact more flights like Dublin were augmented. The same thing applies to VB's. Best case it's of limited use. There is nothing magical about a VB. Much ado about nothing!
The thing that saved us was the non-extendability of the max 2 pilot block times. The company (all of them) hated that language, as they were (and remain) absolutely addicted to the "legal to start legal to finish" concept. Thats why they tried in the dark of night to get that changed. They didn't get away with it...this time. They will be back at some point, probably when we're a little deeper into their self induced "pilot shortage" with that and more wish list items. Just because we didn't lose a battle doesn't mean we've won the war.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:56 AM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by Peoloto View Post
Anyone surprised ^^^^^^ is all for the VB and think it's a good idea?
VB's are not the biggest issue. Its the TDY section. You memorialize that sucker in the PWA and you just gave them the corrective tool on AE's.

Given the way the VB is currently constructed, and how it will be used its limited. They are not going to dump a lot of reserve staffing in them. In fact the company said openly that they did not think that they would be overly popular long term.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:58 AM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
I don't doubt that a VB could be sustained by multiple CS100 bases. My comment was I don't think it can be sustained from a single base (presumed to be LAX when the discussion was going on)no matter where that one particular CS100 base is located (outside of Texas).

As a Texas resident, are you going to down bid to the CS100 in hopes of getting a VB in DFW? Even if the company does establish one in DFW, whose to say how long it lasts? As we all know Marketings' plans change. It might be there for a few months and then they decide to change it to a 737 VB.

I think there are too many variables for pilots to try and sharpshoot VB's. But this is all speculation. If one is established, we'll see what happens...

Denny
I do not think DAL is short sighted enough to drop a VB in texas in hopes that people jump to the left seat of the CS in LAX or NYC. It would have to be created as a standing base for the WB pilots in Texas to give up that lifestyle.

Different in MCO or most of FL, or any VB in relative proximity to a major base like LAX or ATL.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:06 AM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Planetrain View Post
Where did he say in that post he was all for it and thinks it is a good idea?
I didn't. Its a test that can be pulled down. It was part of TA 1 and 2. Its something that is a half measure to bases back in places like MCO which are very big on things the pilots would like to see. It also has some very well defined boundaries for the test period. I would have liked more, but its sufficient.

As I said in a previous post, the TDY is the one that needs to be nailed down before its memorialized. The scheduling system here is not the one NWA had. Bases don't own time, there is no block or reserve positions, there is no max, and there is no requirement that a position becomes permanent if offered as a TDY for four months or longer. The NWA system was much tighter and some say more efficient. I do not see us ever going to it, so if we want something like TDY, it needs to be better designed to live in our scheduling system.

Our scheduling system is a global one, and TDY as designed does not work in our long term favor. Its a handicap to the AE system with no long standing benefits.

If memorialized as is, DAL could easily award positions only in junior bases and then TDY as needed to other bases. Pilot would "volunteer" for the TDY because of the inability to bid those other bases. Its a nasty move but if you want to look at the worst case in the current language, its there.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:11 AM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by Planetrain View Post
Tongue in cheek!

Read back over the VB comments in this thread. This is a mountain out of a mole hill. Whether we get VB or not, who cares? The company will have difficulty staffing. (Hope everyone with an opinion has actually read the PWA language regarding VB). May I emphasize the VOLUNTARY nature of the VB?

I think we have bigger issues. Particularly ME3. Lack of JV PWA progress with regard to Aeromexico and Korean also come to mind. Where is the outcry on this?

Is VB just an issue propagated by a few to distract us from the real issues? And if so, why?
Correct. All of these contract issues become back burner if there is a systemic shift in the post consolidation battle space. ME3, cabotage, DAL buying a foreign airline forcing the union to decide to uphold the PWA and allow foreign ownership as the response for AMR and UAL both who deep down need foreign capital, or one of the many other issues that is creeping slowly our way.

We can force better contractual items when this post consolidation success continues. That continuation is directly corralled to keeping these things at bay. ALPA PAC and other efforts by the union and need to be supported to continue this era.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:16 AM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
The concern augmented domestic trips thing was pulled apart and put to bed in very short order on here in case you don't remember. It's clear you don't, as you just want to feel superior to the "forum."

I don't think VB has much use for the company, personally... but your constant "nothing to see here, you forum whiners" chanting does nothing to add to the discussion over it. There are still a lot of questions to be answered on the subject.

You're one of the biggest contributors here, so when you complain about the forum, most of those fingers are pointed right back at you.
Yes, way back in 2014 and the FAR 117 LOA, the domestic augmentation was agreed to with great concern from the pilots. The union said that the cost to have a third pilot vice the hotel costs would make this a one off, used with some Caribbean destinations that were not severed often or season ****s of aircraft type.

Most often we forget that DAL moves gauge around so often that the changes to the PWA a nullified for the company. Much of this works in a 2-3 fleet airline but not what we currently see.

It also could have helped with some weird flying in Asia but the business plan has also changed since then.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:18 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
I was part of said conversation, and one of the ones that identified it to be of little use. It was killed much quicker than this because it was very simple due to the rest seat requirement, but you know... whatever makes you feel better about yourself. More needs to learned about VBs before just blowing them off and putting it to bed.
As previously said, they were well constructed. Most pilots gloss over TDY and that is where pilots need to focus their concern on. Its not easy to see because its how using this or memorializing it affects other sections of the PWA and how the company can use them.
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