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UAL Pilot Deadhead Language

Old 08-26-2017, 07:11 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by DALMD88FO View Post
Too funny. You have no idea about my mindset. If you don't think everyone of us wants that DH language then you are mistaken.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, we have a contract with the company and in that contract is the language for DH. We negotiated that and yes everything in there costs money.

So do you have some magic ability to make the company change the DH language just because we want it changed? I hear a lot of guys saying exactly what you say above but have no real path to achieving it. Give me the legal path to doing so and I'll fall right in behind you, until then yes we would have to give up something in order to achieve the UAL language. That is a history lesson not crystal ball stuff.

Yes the company is making money hand over fist and we were a large part of that, however they are a business and they will not just give something away, especially if they feel that it has value to us.

We do not have this ability, fortunately we probably will not need such an ability since the "market" for Pilots will provide our leverage.

Did you notice that AMR just "gave" their Pilots an 8% raise, no strings attached in the middle of a contract? AMR management is not known for being especially altruistic. Why did they do this? Because in the opinion of AMR management it will benefit American Airlines.

We are at the point where a better DH policy, a more generous crew meal policy etc will benefit Delta Air Lines and this is why such items are obtainable.

Yes it would be nice to think that DALPA has wised up and finally realizes that everything management says in section 6 should be taken in the context of a negotiation and not brought down from the mountain via two tablets by a bearded man wearing a robe.

Hopefully DALPA has learned from the mistakes of TA-15 but most future gains will be probably be provided by a rising worldwide market for Pilots.

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Old 08-26-2017, 07:14 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Gunfighter View Post
Yes, that is the definition of a defeatist. You have already conceded before making an attempt at improvement.

I don't claim to be a master negotiator of billion dollar contracts, most of the contracts I've negotiated are between $1M-$100M. Even though my experience is in much smaller matters than the PWA, I can assure you starting with your approach ensures a better outcome for the other side of the table. I am grateful anytime the other party comes to the table thinking they have to give up something.
So when you negotiated contracts you had no idea what the total dollar value the cost to your company was going to be when every part was complete? You negotiated without a concept of where you wanted that number to end up?
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Old 08-26-2017, 07:18 AM
  #23  
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This thread is amusing. I've worked for both companies. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
1. Contract surveys. Union can't put it in the request bucket if you don't know what people want. Everyone wants a different piece of pie. The company wants to divide us and we do a nice job all on our own. We don't even get mass turn outs for the surveys
2. Look at DGS instructors working in the training department. How can the union not fight for its own SLI's getting positive space passes to commute in for work when a contract employee gets positive space passes. And part of the reason is the head of line checks whined about his people not getting em. Gotta talk with your feet to get it done.

We all have differences. Pay attention to each airlines contract. Difficult at best when you can't decide on your own contract. Good luck to you all in the next negotiation. Set the bar higher for us all.
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Old 08-26-2017, 08:36 AM
  #24  
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We all have differences. Pay attention to each airlines contract. Difficult at best when you can't decide on your own contract. Good luck to you all in the next negotiation. Set the bar higher for us all.[/QUOTE]



We are more unified than this forum would indicate, as was shown in our last contract vote. It's the same few mgmt wanna bees that over load this site. They are known as firemen who try to wash out any gains this group has earned. Too many have lost too much to listen with anything more than apathy.
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Old 08-26-2017, 09:24 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
No idea where he came up with the having to interview more pilots for each on hired. That data is published monthly and we are hiring the highest percentage of pilots interviewed that I have ever seen.


The interviewee take rate has decreased each year since the data were published, so your statement might be true about 2014, but it is false for 2015, 2016 & 2017.


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Old 08-26-2017, 09:29 AM
  #26  
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Too lazy to look it up, but I saw the same thing Gucci did. Granted, not a huge change, but noteworthy in that the success rate drops year by year

Edit, got curious. Here's the flying Ops numbers from Aug update:

Year: Interview success rate

14: 78%
15: 74%
16: 72%
17: 70%

Last edited by Sputnik; 08-26-2017 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 08-26-2017, 09:50 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
No idea where he came up with the having to interview more pilots for each on hired. That data is published monthly and we are hiring the highest percentage of pilots interviewed that I have ever seen.
Sailing,
I have a good deal of respect for your knowledge on Delta Air Lines. I am disappointed in your analysis if the August 2017 Flying Ops Update. You have chosen an irrelevant fact to counter a valid point. Your comment about hiring record numbers is accurate, but not relevant to the fact you are rebutting. I clearly stated we have to filter through more candidates to hire one. Our pilot hiring numbers on the top page in the bright colored table prove this point exactly. I'm not publishing internal company communications, but the August 7th Flight Operations email has the link to the document on Delta Net. Look at the interview success rate in the orange column.
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Old 08-26-2017, 09:55 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
So when you negotiated contracts you had no idea what the total dollar value the cost to your company was going to be when every part was complete? You negotiated without a concept of where you wanted that number to end up?
I knew exactly where I wanted to end up and always had a solid cost analysis. When the other party came to the table already conditioned to give something up, I moved my bar a little higher, because I knew their "defeatist attitude" moved the negotiation in my favor.
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:16 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by DALMD88FO View Post
Too funny. You have no idea about my mindset. If you don't think everyone of us wants that DH language then you are mistaken.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, we have a contract with the company and in that contract is the language for DH. We negotiated that and yes everything in there costs money.

So do you have some magic ability to make the company change the DH language just because we want it changed? I hear a lot of guys saying exactly what you say above but have no real path to achieving it. Give me the legal path to doing so and I'll fall right in behind you, until then yes we would have to give up something in order to achieve the UAL language. That is a history lesson not crystal ball stuff.

Yes the company is making money hand over fist and we were a large part of that, however they are a business and they will not just give something away, especially if they feel that it has value to us.
You are worth what you negotiate. If you don't think you can get our deadhead language (which is cost neutral) without giving something up... defeatists like you have nothing but stagnant wage growth and consessions ahead.

Boy I hope you're never on DALs negotiating committee.
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:28 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Gunfighter View Post
Sailing,
I have a good deal of respect for your knowledge on Delta Air Lines. I am disappointed in your analysis if the August 2017 Flying Ops Update. You have chosen an irrelevant fact to counter a valid point. Your comment about hiring record numbers is accurate, but not relevant to the fact you are rebutting. I clearly stated we have to filter through more candidates to hire one. Our pilot hiring numbers on the top page in the bright colored table prove this point exactly. I'm not publishing internal company communications, but the August 7th Flight Operations email has the link to the document on Delta Net. Look at the interview success rate in the orange column.
Years ago they used to interview 6 a day and hired 1 or 2. Some days none. Now we hire 70%. I still can't get highly qualified guys interviews. I am talking mil guys with 4000 hours of 121 PIC and check airman positions. They are not hurting in the least! Maybe in a few more years but I doubt even that will come to pass. They are seeing more need to repeat training events so perhaps they are looking harder. I hardly call a take rate dropping from 78 to 70 a crisis.
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