Calendar day
 

Evidently we are getting calendar day back here at AA after 26 odd years. There is opposition to it because the fear is that trips will tighten up with earlier shows, later release, and longer 4-5 day trips so the airline can get max productivity for the 5.15 calendar day.
What has been the experience at DAL with this? Did trips change after implementation or have you always had it? Any intel appreciated.

We don't have calendar day. I share the fears about first and last days too... surprised so many commuters want it. Maybe some exceptions to first and last day... calendar day on tweeners only?

We have average day of 5:15, which I think has been generally well received.

As I understand it, you guys are getting Average Daily Credit like we have at DAL, not Min Calendar Day.

Im much more a fan of min day pay, but it seems like a pretty big ask compared to what we have.

Just be prepared for a 7-8 hour flying day with 2 2-3 hour flying days and getting paid 15:45

Yup....but it is better than the "Bankruptcy to FAR117 LOA" time when you could work 6.5 hours, have a 30 hour layover, and work another 6.5 hours and get 13 hours for 3 days of work rather than today's 15:45. At least we are moving in the right direction.

As a commuter to ATL, the trips seem to be pretty good. The 3 days are a mixed bag, 4 days are mostly commutable, and the 5 days are very commutable (afternoon show, early AM release). I only have a year sample size and I'm sure it could be better.

On the narrowbody, it seems like everything is built very close to the 15:45, 21:00, 26:15. They really don't like having soft time in there. The widebody trips tend to pay with the trip rig 3.5:1 so the 5:15 doesn't come into play.

Much appreciated. Thanks!

It’s why I wish we could improve our rig to 3 to 1.

Average vs min is a loser for the pilots, period.

So is it an average daily or a hard daily credit?

Average daily...

Min calendar day of 5:30 is on my wish list. I don't mind the "right" 30 hour layover, but the vast majority of the time I get 30 hours in a place I'd rather not be, and the company works my butt off on the remaining days of the trip to minimize credit. Sure would be nice to have less work on days 1/3 of the trip or just get paid an extra 5:30 for my arrival after everything closes and departure before anything opens in Smallville, USA.

Those 30 hour layovers (i.e., BIS, LFT, MOT) could be eliminated if DALPA agreed to CDOs but my understanding was that DALPA received strong negative feedback regarding them so it was dropped from the FAR117 LOA.

CDOs are tough to work under FAR 117. At the regionals where they are allowed the number of them has significantly dropped compared to years past and even with minimum day guarantees the number of 30 hour layovers has increased significantly.

No to CDO. Yes to min calendar day of 5:30 :).

If these small town airports can only support 1 flight a day, bring it in during the afternoon and have it leave an hour later. Either no layover, or a 22 hour layover with reasonable times in/out would be much better than the existing 30 hour, in at midnight out at 6am trips we currently have.

I have to assume there is some financial advantage to leaving the planes scattered at these tiny non-maintenance airports overnight but it certainly isn't apparent from the operator perspective.

You need a early departure out of those airports to maximize connection opportunities and revenue.

Bottom line is that we schedule things to make money. If mid afternoon departures once a day was the financial ideal, we'd do that. We don't do that. Probably a compelling financial reason for that.

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This makes sense and was my gut feeling. Doesn't make the 0345 wake-ups any easier. I feel for people whose body clocks aren't on EST, it's rough for anybody waking up at 0345 EST, I can't imagine the poor pilots who are acclimated to mountain or pacific time who have the 0530 departure out of CAE or ILM.

I would guess it has to do with collecting passengers for the hub "banks" in the AM. A later morning departure might not get the jet to a hub in time to give the passengers time to connect thru the first bank and (supposedly) frequency is an important factor in customer wants...after gluten-free, non-GMO taste-free snacks, of course.

Agreed. Id rather do CDO lines all month long than try to cycle between late nights and early wake ups that assume grown adults can get to bed at 7PM for a solid 8 hours of REM sleep. That's a bigger fantasy than thinking "8 hours behind the door" is an 8 hour sleep opportunity LOL.

I’d do CDOs all day....for 10:30 pay.

Atl-SAV, 6 hours sleep, fly back in the morning.

You would have really hated the trips 20 years ago! We almost planted a 727 in the pine trees 6 miles short of the runway in ATL after 3 consecutive days of those early wake ups for a West coast crew. They were getting up at midnight to 1am. That finally led to changes but someone still has to fly the trips. We are a 24 hour airline.

If they were 100% voluntary -- including RES pilots I think this might be acceptable -- also depends on 2nd and 3rd order effects adding these to the bid package would do. If they're not voluntary, some poor guy on SC will get one of these right at FAR limits and it will absolutely wreck him. Even worse, that flight will be delayed 3 hours by the time it gets to the SC pilot and he'll get 5:15 credit towards guarantee for his trouble.

I am pretty sure there are some RCC restrictions that the company is currently following in this regard. IIRC west coast crews will not push earlier than 0800 on the east coast. I believe these protections are in our bid packages so who knows what happens once we are out operating in the system.

Not to say that a 0800 push (0500 body clock time (BC) for a left coaster) requiring a 0640 (0340 BC) pick--up, requiring a 0600 (0300BC) wake-up is much fun. :cool:

Now if you are referring to west coasters who are forced into commuting to an east coast domicile and getting these early wake-ups, all I can say is ouch!

Scoop

"We almost planted a 727 in the pine trees" and "we are a 24 hour airline" (with the inferred meaning of 'deal with it') are 2 statements that should never be uttered in the same sentence. Safety must always prevail over profit, or there will be no Delta Air Lines.

There is absolutely nothing stopping the company from doing exactly what he described right now. The company doesn’t do it because there is too much credit time associated with them.

Denny

This is the answer! Airlines that use them have crappy duty rigs. 1 for 1.5 makes it expensive.

Don’t forget.....you are trying to go to sleep at 7pm after only being awake for 11 or so hours since you got in at midnight the night before.

Right. The biggest circadian concern is consistency. It takes about a day to fully adjust your circadian cycles by an hour. You can shorten that somewhat by using certain lighting and possibly supplements like melatonin, but you can't just flip back and forth like our schedules demand we do. The mathematical reality on that is quite brutal to front/back side of the clock operations which is why we'll never see true circadian protections written into the regs. They invented the notion that you can "acclimate" to the other side of the world in 30-something hours, which is completely bogus. OTOH, we'll never get full circadian protections in any reg or contract because that would essentially eliminate international flying without a massive increase in manpower.

There is nothing unsafe about CDO trips compared to other flying airlines do, provided pilots stay on that cycle. If that was the case, they would in many cases be more safe than the flip flopping we do both domestically and internationally. But I'd bet the company would want no part of a fixed CDO line schedule with adequate protections for reserves though because that would cost them more than it would save them. The main reason they'd want them would be efficiency and flexibility to sprinkle them out in bid packs and open time and let the coverage fall where it may. That would degrade safety for sure.

As for what they'd save by having them, there's some built in savings from hotel and per diem cost, but in most cases the credit time would be extremely high compared to the block time. IMO they don't want them enough to pay the cost of having them.

Having been forced to do CDOs at my regional, I would take a 30 hour overnight everytime. I felt like a zombie the morning after a CDO. Some people love them, but a significant amount are inevitably forced onto junior lineholders or reserves who don't want them because of concerns with rest. Even the die hard CDO fans would tell me they felt like crap on the fourth one in a row.

Having been forced to do them at NW, I can say that are not something that I want to do, for any pay. No vote from me.

That's why they should only be allowed in hard lines of time. No one can get a line unless they bid it. Any unbid lines (extremely unlikely) would dump all of them into open time and any reserve assigned one, once blocked in, would be off until 10AM the following morning.

My guess is these would give the FRB quite a workout. I’m not doing them. I won’t do red-eyes either. If someone else wants them, they can have them. They are unsafe. I hope we don’t add risk to our operations. That early morning non-rev flight might get a second look, I don’t want to be on those flights. WOCL disruption and sleep cycle adaptation have been linked to senility and other cognitive issues. It’s not worth it.

It sounds like the APA BOD will probably vote No on the Calendar day/LOS deal on 1/16. There is an uproar about what we are giving the company in exchange (basically, giving the company the green light to continue to assign trips/RAs at their discretion instead of abiding by the JCBA. There is also forgiveness for 50% of all existing grievances.)

Basically we get industry leading 5:15 Average Calendar Day, sit time and night override, and Full LOS for all our furloughed folks including retro. However in exchange we give the company what I posted above.

Thoughts?

Just a thought, but I wouldn't call 5:15 average "industry leading." Maybe industry standard but then I don't know what United gets.

AA has other rigs that UAL and DAL do not. I believe they are a night rig and a sit time rig.

So yea, the APA will be voting down industry leading rigs.

Thoughts? The APA is moronic for voting this down.

Apologies, i should have clarified. Industry leading due to the sit time override we currently have and night override we would gain, on top of the 5:15 ACD.

Agreed... wonder if some improvements were made during the waiting period.

I love all the 30 hr layovers we have on the B717! Yeah, I don't get 8 hours sleep on the inevitable early get up the day after, but hey, since I'm over 50 I don't need that much sleep anymore. 4-6 hours sleep is plenty because I can use the 30 hours to erase any previous sleep deficit (which is what the CDO's lack - 30 hours prior).