p3flteng

Interesting article I got the link from
http://www.airlinegossip.com 's twitter feed.


http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/airline-boom-times-stoke-push-by-pilots-for-lost-retirement/article_93e39112-40fe-522a-91e2-ff621cf2c645.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

Would like to hear some opinions on this, I like my 401k, and I ll get there by the time I am 65, but I am maxing it out, right now and for the next 17 years. Would really like some more from the company, but in my name...Co stock? An annuity? ???

BobZ

Other than making employees whole for what was sacrificed to save their companies....the answer should be ENN-OHH.

forgot to bid

We could just invest the amount above the 401k limit.

Scoop

I am all for increasing our pension but would prefer the money in my name/account vice another promise by the company.

In any case we caved via LOA 51 when 100% of the affected Pilots had a stake in the game - Maybe I am wrong here but I just don't see the new hires getting too excited about this and they are rapidly growing in numbers and clout.

Scoop

GogglesPisano

I'd rather increase 401k limits and company contributions.

Herkflyr

Let's see. The company got significant concessions from us to "prevent" pension termination, then it was terminated anyway.

Any return to a pension will absorb lots of negotiating capital...all so the company can repeat the process?

Uh, nyet.

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Ray Red

Why on earth would I want a pension when I saw what happened to the first one. Let me have my money and the responsibility to manage it. I don’t want the company to hold it until the company needs to survive next time and then dump it in BK.

If there were a new pension I’m sure senior guys would feel they are entitled to credit for working under the old pension system. Sorry, I will not vote my self a much smaller piece of the C2020 pie for something I would likely lose in the future.

Tailhookah

No way to a pension ever again. I know Alpa plans on spending some money to do a study on all the options out there to add to our retirement on this next contract. I heard Dave Adler talking about it in the NY crew room the other day. So it seems like they are looking into all options. I agree with that but... if any of you Delta Alpa reps are reading this let me say that I will never vote for a contract that returns us to a pension.

It's outdated. Read anything on this in any financial writing and you'll see nothing but negative press on it. Anyone who still has a pension is just one bad thing from happening to their company to lose it or get reduced payouts.

Right now when things are doing very well it seems like a slam dunk to go back. But didn't we learn anything the past 18 years? OK, I am all for adding to our 401k in maybe other avenues and am willing to see what those avenues are, but not a pension.

Pensions are liability nightmares to business. Also take into account more people living longer and more pilots being hired its not financially viable.

I'll take more to my 401k. That's all I want. Give us more flexibility in that 401k in better and more diverse financial vehicles. But a pension is a complete fairy tale and any of you who thinks otherwise are smoking crack.

Tail

p3flteng

Wouldn't more in the 401k mean we pay more tax on it(over the 18k/54k)?

What about company stock they could put into our 401k, like they did for the merger? Spitballing, but say you base that on 15% of pay earned like PS for the value of flight pay. Do it quarterly, the company just creates stock so its less expensive for them, we pay less in taxes? Add that to what our 401k already gets and that could be a nice kicker ontop...

zippinbye

Anybody ever take a look at a LIRP? Life Insurance Retirement Plan. I'm just beginning to scratch the surface of learning about LIRPs. In a nutshell, LIRPs are overfunded whole life insurance products that can pay out a tax free benefit from accumulated investment principal. Essentially, one places way more than the amount required to cover death benefit premiums into an account labeled "life insurance." You own it, it participates market performance. I know, I know conventional wisdom says if you want life insurance, buy term to get the benefit you need and stay away from expense-laden whole life products. In the case of a LIRP, the death benefit is a secondary purpose. Because LIRPs are a life insurance product, amounts withdrawn are tax free. As I learn about LIRPs, it's clear that the primary purpose would be a retirement income vehicle, with an ancillary life insurance benefit and possibly long-term care benefits as well. Some plans have market downside protections, while participating in market gains. Like any financial product, LIRPs can be complex and laden with costs, but there are good ones and some dogs. Most Fortune 500 executives have LIRPs as part of their compensation package. It's easy to find negative talk about LIRPs on the Internet. They are not a main-stream financial product, but some pretty sharp people have insisted on having them in their overall retirement package. An individual can self-fund a LIRP, but I'm wondering if there is a means for us to pursue such a plan as a company-provided benefit.

Here's some very ballpark figures based on rough memory of some reading I cannot refer back to at the moment. An individual who's 55 intending to retire in ten years could invest about $70k per year for 10 years, and in the end could expect to draw about $70K per year tax-free until age 95. That tax free income stream could have a positive impact on overall tax reduction vs similar amounts coming out of a 401K (more favorable "provisional income" calculations that might net a greater social security benefit). The account would have a cash accumulation that varies throughout the retirement period, but it would clearly be a significant nest egg to leave behind. A variable death benefit would range from $500K to $800k throughout the life of the contract. If one had the misfortune of dying shortly after retiring, I recall something like $750,000 in account principal and $800,000 in life insurance. So at a some points in the actuarial progression, there's an amount lurking around 2x total investment available to your heirs, but while alive you are collecting something on the order of 10% annual ROI and it's tax fee. That's just one vague illustration based on one quote from a life insurance broker. All figures mentioned above might not be recalled with 100% accuracy, but the point is, I think it's worth looking at.

I'm up for studying LIRPs quite a bit more. Like a 401K, LIRPs are in the name of the owner, not attached to the fortune of one's employer.