SWA vs Delta
 

Something else to throw into the mix about SWA... the exaggeration factor.

Just look at ATL domicile question on our boards... you’ll see answers of “10 years just to get plug ATL FO... “ and “upgrade time at SWA is 15 years or longer.”

Here’s the reality:

You’ll be on probation still when you get ATL. Anyone displaced from it can hold it now. It’s still senior towards the middle and top of the list.

Upgrade at SWA:

Been here a little over 2 years, and I’m in the low 80’s percentage company-wide. Upgrades are running at 60% company-wide.

Still hiring like crazy with many aircraft coming, plus our retirements don’t start kicking in until 2021-22 timeframe.

Having said that, if I lived in ATL and was set on staying there, it would still be a no-brainer.

Great problem to have!

Both are mediocre....if you want real advancement hold out for United...

LOL right, because DL advancement isn't as good. :rolleyes:

DL has hired more than UAL the last few years, but its not a zero sum game. DL has hired more in large part because DL has grown the bottom of its list more than UAL has.

Both going forward are good choices with lots of retirements, but the notion that DL has done its hiring and now its UAL's turn is patently false.

There’s plenty of exaggeration on these boards, but one cannot discard the amount of people hired by Delta over the past 5 years, many much younger than your stereotypical applicant in his late 30’s/early 40’s.

As a number of people here say that one hired now can have a great narrowbody captain career at Delta or as a WB FO, it doesn’t stack that well against UAL or AA going forward as they started hiring much later in the game and have way more retirements coming up.

What do you guys think?

Ha ha. Well us "lost decade" types like myself would probably answer that by saying you will never know. None of these questions mattered after 9/11. None of these questions will matter with the next (hopefully not as deep as previous one) economic downturn.

JB was once cream of the crop when the others weren't hiring. NJA was the same. In ten years UAL may suck while DAL doesn't. Allegiant may have the best contract while SWA becomes the stepping stone....I don't believe that last one but just saying.

Most of my new hire class was late 30s or early 40s or later. Where are you getting your numbers? How do you define "many?"

The majority of AA's positions are spoken for due to the flows. If you aren't military it is around 99% of the positions, they aren't in the ballpark for the discussion as far a place most applicants can realistically plan to go.

UA is focusing on concessions to allow more RJs, I'm skeptical they will get there, but you never know. In any case they've been claiming plans to hire as many as Delta for the last few years and have failed to deliver. How they are compensating for that man fewer bodies (and why) is up for discussion as well. The numbers say you'll eventually get good movement at United, you'll get good movement at Delta immediately. The movement argument is that DAL isn't as good to go to because they are the ones actually hiring.

I also think it's incredibly shortsighted to only look at hiring so far for why you would go somewhere. This board may be a bit biased, but I think that Delta is the best run of the majors and I think that means a lot for prospective outlooks.

Delta also has a lot better soft money and other benefits. Even the nonrev benefits are very different. AA is apparently first come first serve for nonrev, I guess that's good while you're junior, but you get no advantage after that. Profit sharing might as well exist at AA and UA compared to DAL. Right now that alone is a 10% premium on pay.

The only one at UA that was "focusing" on that was Kirby, and even he has since stated that is not needed for his plan. His change is likely the result of having the ever living $h!t beat out of him by the Union. The Master Chairman has made it painfully clear to us that he has zero intention of discussing that idea at all!!

UAL and AA have much more heavy iron than DAL. that is the only point I am trying to make. Heavy iron equals heavy dollars

As a 2014 hire at both AAL and DAL, my time to WB A is pretty much the same at both...we currently have about the same number of WB As as AAL and close to the same number as UAL. Of course they make up for this with a larger number of WB Bs. Even though they staff 1 CA/3FO (vs our 2CA/2FO...which is huge btw), my time to WB B was MUCH faster at DAL, and my AAL classmates are nowhere near NB A (aside from E190), while I can hold 717/M88/320/73N A in multiple bases. IF we could actually band our 330/764 up to the top rate (like UAL/AAL), I would put my career earnings against theirs any day of the week.

Obviously this is given everything remains static, which we all know is a pipe dream. Much more than all this, the heavy dollars/heavy QOL goes to the guy who lives in base. That's why I'm at DAL and not AAL.

As a 2014 hire you were at the tip of the hing wave. I think the point was looking at someone hired today.

How many people hired between 2014 and now at Delta?

Also, how are you guys feeling about your JV’s?

Swa may (and probably will) order another fleet type during your career. That being said - as a 737 pilot, the thought of spending a few decades in the cockpit of a 737 is not let’s say..... ideal...

More of a knock on Boeing than SWA, but that is the reality.

I would assume the average narrow body SW pilot makes more than an average narrow body DL pilot, but not leagues better. Some guys will never fly widebodys because of domicile, seniority, opportunity, etc. Payrates are close at 737, where 320/717/MD88/CS1 is lower, only ER and future NEO are greater domestic. Work rules governing min pay are much better at SW = more days off and/or more $ per duty period. SW pilots fly more per duty period. Retirement is the same. Profit sharing better at DL but not that far from each other. Medical much better at SW. Vacation better at SW. Premium pay is similar though easier to acquire at SW. SW greater schedule flexibility. Better RSV at Delta. SW has best scope in the industry. Both companies are low debt high profit.

SWA gets 16% DC and 24% PS?

If you look at the rate tables on this site, only the 717 and C series are lower than SWA for CA positions and it's very close. C series is ahead for first 4 years and behind only slightly afterwards. 737 pay rates are around 7% off in DLs favor. The FO pay at SWA only beats DL on the 717, C series, and MD-88 and only for year 5 and beyond (DL is higher prior to that).

Do even know what the DL profit sharing and retirement are? I don't think they're even close.

14.2% and 11.3% this past year. 15% DC in Jan and our PS would prob be on par if we had like 700 RJ’s bringing in $ without having to pay them any of the PS pie.

I’m just glad UAL, DL and AA are negotiating CBA’s ahead of us this go around. Hopefully we’ll be able to use pattern bargaining in our favor this go around.

If we didn’t have 700 rj’s flying for us, we might have another 250 737’s on Delta metal since we could do our flying instead of sub-contracting it. I prefer that to the small amount of PS from rj flying. :cool:

No doubt. I’m sure the big wigs would rather subcontract out more as it’s less in wages, benefits, etc they have to pay out at the mainline level. Wish everyone luck in reigning scope back in....shouldn’t have ever given it up to begin with. But that’s a argument for another day.