|
Originally Posted by JamesBond
(Post 2632515)
Ahhhhh but if he does it is self inflicted. DZers lost it at the point of a gun. It is something you will never understand I guess unless the .gov steals your Social Security and/or Medicare
|
Originally Posted by Dorn
(Post 2632594)
Ill be honest, Im very much against any pension due to the fears many have previously posted. Ill bite though and ask those of you who believe we should get one, please explain what exactly you would like to see, how you would to see it rolled out, and what would you be willing to sacrifice for it? Im only assuming that if this passed the company would remove our 401K DC and make it at best a "typical 401K" and have some kind of basic % match.
Im honestly trying to see what bullet points (preferably more comprehensive) you all have in favor of such an idea. Its easy in my opinion to complain about what were leaving on the table but I and Im sure others would like to hear specifics. The devil is in the details and the details matter. Hopefully the MEC understands how divisive a"pension" would be. I don't think they are talking about a DB as that is off the table due to PBGC laws(my understanding) What I would like to see is an increase to the DC if any excess (above 415C) can be used to avoid taxes ie. an annuity comes to mind. Otherwise an increase in DC helps the less senior more than the more senior because the DC excess comes in the form of straight pay and taxes take 45%(min) of the "benefit"....39% federal, 2% ALPA dues, 4% Obamacare tax above 200k, now tack on state tax of 10% and you are at 55% lost due to transaction fees. Whereas the young guys can choose to shield all of the income from taxes an get $1 benefit for $1 negotiated |
Originally Posted by 4fans
The FedEx guys seem to be working on an actual plan.
The “variable benefit” plan currently being discussed at FDX would replace their current defined benefit, and while it is considered a DB plan has funding elements not unlike a DC for a corporation. There’s also a “flat dollar benefit” DB plan, which is what UPS has, which also has funding elements lowering a corporation’s burden. Pro/Con to both. Worth noting in addition to FedEx’s 2% FAE defined benefit (130k cap) and the UPS FDA defined benefit (120k cap), both companies also have a DC plan (8% soon 9% and 12%, respectively). Lots o’ ways to skin the retirement cat. Back to my dirty freight dog sandbox... |
Originally Posted by m3113n1a1
(Post 2632511)
How do you know he won't have to adjust anything? Can you see the future? Yes, times are good now, but just as it has been in the past one's actual career probably won't look anything like one had imagined it would.
Sure 401k is in our name now, but it doesn't mean a secure retirement or lucrative career is guaranteed. I just can’t help it..... Anyone who really and truly believes what you wrote, and I bolded, should be all onboard with developing another type of retirement income stream. I think you are right! It’s not guaranteed. Hasn’t there also been talk by some in Congress about the Federal Government taking over 401k’s? I know that’s rather radical but who knows what will happen in 20+ years. Denny |
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
(Post 2632693)
Hopefully the MEC understands how divisive a"pension" would be. I don't think they are talking about a DB as that is off the table due to PBGC laws(my understanding)
What I would like to see is an increase to the DC if any excess (above 415C) can be used to avoid taxes ie. an annuity comes to mind. Otherwise an increase in DC helps the less senior more than the more senior because the DC excess comes in the form of straight pay and taxes take 45%(min) of the "benefit"....39% federal, 2% ALPA dues, 4% Obamacare tax above 200k, now tack on state tax of 10% and you are at 55% lost due to transaction fees. Whereas the young guys can choose to shield all of the income from taxes an get $1 benefit for $1 negotiated The top marginal tax bracket is 37%, not 39% and that is for taxable income above 600k (married) 500k (single). Few pilots, even widebody captains will fall into this range. 400-600 of taxable income is taxed at 37%. If you are 315-400k, the marginal rate is only 32%. Keep in mind, we are talking about the marginal rate on taxable income. If you are making 450K per year as a captain, your taxable income after deductions is most likely in the 315-400 range at 32%. Secondly, you are mis-applying the 3.8% Obamacare surtax. It is a tax on net investment income, not W-2 income. Again, the concept is valid, but the amount lost to taxes is closer to 45% not 55%. With that tax penalty in mind, I agree we should be looking for a method of increasing retirement benefits in a tax efficient manner. |
Originally Posted by JamesBond
(Post 2632521)
You think you'll live to 95?
And here's 30 seconds of research to show that even $770K is a first world 'problem'. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/07/how-...every-age.html |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 2632738)
[/B]
I just can’t help it..... Anyone who really and truly believes what you wrote, and I bolded, should be all onboard with developing another type of retirement income stream. I think you are right! It’s not guaranteed. Hasn’t there also been talk by some in Congress about the Federal Government taking over 401k’s? I know that’s rather radical but who knows what will happen in 20+ years. Denny |
Let’s not forget the real elephant in the room with 401k’s. The traditional 401k v Roth, is the real killer imo. I’ve done all I can to put away as much as I can into the Roth portions my entire career. ( yes one day soon I’ll hit that limit and won’t qualify anymore). The clowns in D.C will eventually realize that all these social programs will require more and more of our money to fund that disaster. So yes as a mid 30’s guy I’m fairly sure they will tax that at significantly higher rates than we think in present day. Don’t forget before Reagan we had as high as 90% taxes on some income brackets and I won’t be surprised if that comes to fruition one day. Our liabilities are the “real no joke” looming U.S. crisis and were just acting like it’s not a problem.
...ok and I’ll take my tin foil hat off and back to the retirement discussion :) |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 2632738)
Hasn’t there also been talk by some in Congress about the Federal Government taking over 401k’s?
|
Originally Posted by Gunfighter
(Post 2632762)
I agree the concept of your post. Let's get the numbers correct before we build on this argument though.
The top marginal tax bracket is 37%, not 39% and that is for taxable income above 600k (married) 500k (single). Few pilots, even widebody captains will fall into this range. 400-600 of taxable income is taxed at 37%. If you are 315-400k, the marginal rate is only 32%. Keep in mind, we are talking about the marginal rate on taxable income. If you are making 450K per year as a captain, your taxable income after deductions is most likely in the 315-400 range at 32%. Secondly, you are mis-applying the 3.8% Obamacare surtax. It is a tax on net investment income, not W-2 income. Again, the concept is valid, but the amount lost to taxes is closer to 45% not 55%. With that tax penalty in mind, I agree we should be looking for a method of increasing retirement benefits in a tax efficient manner. "How much is the federal income tax rate? In 2017, the income limits for all tax brackets and all filers will be adjusted for inflation and will be as follows (Table 1). The top marginal income tax rate of 39.6 percent will hit taxpayers with taxable income of $418,400 and higher for single filers and $470,700 and higher for married couples filing jointly. Yea....hit that 39.6% incremental rate. I know rates are coming down this year Additionally, there is an Obama care tax of .9% on all income over 200/ 250k (single/married) and you are correct about the 4%....and truth in advertising it is not 2%ALPA dues... but close....wat? 1.6....1.7...1.8....oh eff it, close enough to 2%.... even on the DC excess With AMT I can unequivocally say "my butt is bloody"....I take home less than 50% of each additional dollar earned |
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
(Post 2632821)
......I take home less than 50% of each additional dollar earned
|
Originally Posted by Hossharris
(Post 2632835)
Throw me in that briar patch !
Really my point was that several have stated "I want this, it affectss everyone equally" that may or may not be correct.....keep an open mind on all matters and pray that the resources of ALPA exceed mine |
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
(Post 2632821)
Well, not quibbling but in 2017...
"How much is the federal income tax rate? ....... I take home less than 50% of each additional dollar earned In 1980, the top marginal rate was 70%. In 1962, the top marginal rate was 92%. How are any of them relevant to 2018? In fact, by the time any of the ideas are implemented we will be concerned with 2019 and beyond tax rates. Please be honest with the math, so the validity of the argument isn't diluted. I'm with you on this, let's use facts relevant to the problem we are trying to solve. The top marginal tax rate for most of the high earning pilots is 32.9% federal (315-400k), there are some who will exceed that with Delta alone and quite a few with outside income or working spouses who are in 37.9% federal range. The state additive is more unique and varies from 0-10%. WRT the 50% comment, congrats for having that problem. You need to find a non W-2 source of income. I sound like a broken record on these forums, but owning income producing real estate is the best way to make money and build wealth. It far exceeds any DC Backdoor Mega 415c Roth Pension VB Annuity plan in existence. |
Originally Posted by Dorn
(Post 2632780)
Let’s not forget the real elephant in the room with 401k’s. The traditional 401k v Roth, is the real killer imo. I’ve done all I can to put away as much as I can into the Roth portions my entire career. ( yes one day soon I’ll hit that limit and won’t qualify anymore).
|
Gunfighter,
Totally understand about the tax % and I don't think I have tried to say that the majority of pilots do pay ??????. I can unequivocally state that I did last year....I will have to see what this year brings. As far as your proselytizing about investment property..I agree. Unfortunately, being of years approaching senility and the relative high property values , my opportunity is limited( your opinion may vary but I did cut and paste the ideas that you were involved with and forwarded them to my kids). Time value of money and the rule of 72 becomes magical if you have a long time horizon. If the years are limited the results "appear" ho, hum and carrying investment mortgage liability can be a little daunting if you have no current income other than SS and frozen DB/PBGC It is a slippery slope....would I be for retirement medical? yes. Do I expect somebody that did their "sentence" and has Tricare to feel the same way? Absolutely not. Again that is my point. We are all different but it is up to the MEC to bring forth the bestest! Will everyone be happy? No. But would an outside observer say "that helps the most pilots in the most equitable fashion".....that's prolly good Pay banding?,....prolly good, but some will get hurt......solution? Ease it in with at least 3 years notice so that pilots can take advantage of their seniority and bid accordingly over 3 years(otherwise the 777 capt is subsidizing "juniors " huge pay bump)....(No, I am not a 777 capt trying to protect my turf, not even in the 330/765 cat) |
Amen!! Automatic NO vote for me if there is a DB plan on this next contract.
Originally Posted by NavyFlyer
(Post 2632115)
I think we can all agree that you deadzoners got hosed by both timing and circumstance. You gave up a lot in order to save your jobs and the company. Me, and many others, wouldn’t be here without your sacrifices. So thank you, sincerely, for paving the way for the future pilots and employees here at Delta Air Lines. I enjoy my job and flying/learning alongside you all.
No, you will not receive any more money/benefits/windfall on this contract due to your poor timing and circumstance. Life happens, and we can all agree that your misfortune wasn’t planned. Thus, our futures aren’t planned either, and hopefully most of us are saving and planning on our future screw jobs from both the company, stock market, timing, technology changes, etc. As you can attest, life happens, and it will for us as well. While flying alongside you guys, most of us have learned NOT to trust others with our money (DB), live on half of what we make in case we get sick, and expect to live through another 9/11, etc. You’ve told us that the future is bright... until it’s not. So prepare for a turbulent career and be pleasantly surprised if it all works out in the end. The only equitable solution regarding upcoming negotiations is to increase everyone’s pay, defined contributions, soft time, QOL, sick/vacation, etc EQUALLY. Everyone is a winner, and can choose their investment strategies individually. Real estate, dividends, index funds or hookers and blow. It doesn’t really matter, because we ALL get a raise. Any union that robs Peter to pay Paul is sealing its own fate. Any fake letters or ridiculous posts by Jerry just inflame a pilot group that can easily navigate to the most simple, pure and easy solution right in front of them: Pay and DC raises for all! QOL improvements for all. Sick and vacation increases, etc. Let’s all accept that life isn’t fair, and learn from the circumstances of those before us. Let’s hope we can compensate those who took it on the chin well enough to allow them to recover as much as possible before they retire. I know it sounds like I don’t care, but I’m just being honest. If anyone from the MEC reads this crap, know that you will LOSE the bottom half of this pilot group if you decide to benefit one group over another or introduce a DB. Simple solutions and fast results have the added benefit of helping deadzoners enjoy more “recovery” time, too! So let’s work together to get paid. And please, no more fake/dumb/ineffective letters from Jerry/gszg. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Gunfighter
(Post 2632869)
In 1980, the top marginal rate was 70%. In 1962, the top marginal rate was 92%. How are any of them relevant to 2018? In fact, by the time any of the ideas are implemented we will be concerned with 2019 and beyond tax rates. Please be honest with the math, so the validity of the argument isn't diluted.
I was as honest as I understood the info and when you "enlightened" me;) I readily acknowledged it. How bout that .9% tax(Obamacare) that is a fact, yes? You try to paint it as I was purposely misleading ie purposely dishonest. I don't paint you as dishonest when you failed to mention that .9% We can all agree taxes can be a *****(thanks guys, I don't need to hear about first world problems) I think this would be a better place if people got the benefit of the doubt until they have proven that they have nefarious/malicious intent All you stalkers . Notice the copious emoticons? Don't make me have to say, "Lighten up, Francis".....no malicious intent intended:( PS: There were copious emoticons until the program said I was limited to three. Had to redact numerous. I think it is a nefarious plot to subvert my warped sense of humor. Cheers |
Nobody is stalking anyone. Maybe you should bid off the a420 canabus
|
Originally Posted by deadseal
(Post 2632948)
Nobody is stalking anyone. Maybe you should bid off the a420 canabus
Denny |
i want to share a vital information about how easily you can recover any lost fund via https://oxpahat.org/ is a helpful source for various recovery for i and my family. good luck
|
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
(Post 2632790)
And merging them into the Government’s entitlement programs? Politicians and bureaucrats drool at the very thought. :rolleyes:
|
Originally Posted by flyboy2181
(Post 2632689)
Not true. The 16% DC can easily be reduced/cut and our pay rates can easily be cut again.
|
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
(Post 2632790)
And merging them into the Government’s entitlement programs? Politicians and bureaucrats drool at the very thought. :rolleyes:
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:48 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands