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04-04-2019, 10:21 AM

#21

Scoop

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Joined APC: Dec 2007

Position: DAL 330

Posts: 6,865

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

You live in fantasy land.

Both can be correct. There is a TVM, but also no reason to rush. Yes we will get retro for pay, but there is no retro for QOL items.

For all those who want QOL items first and foremost keep in mind we will not see any of those items while in negotiations.

So no need to rush, a great deal in 2 years would be better for most than a good deal right away - except for all those who retire in the next two years and do not get to enjoy any of the QOL improvements.

Like most things in life there is a trade off. Overall I say take our time for the best deal possible.

Scoop

Last edited by Scoop; 04-04-2019 at 11:16 AM.

04-04-2019, 11:00 AM

#22

snowdawg

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Joined APC: May 2011

Posts: 275

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

Using that logic we should still be "holding out" for the 1940 contract...at 1939 pay scales.

There is indeed time value of money, as sure as gravity.

There is also "time value of concessions" baked into a hastily agreed to contract.

Of course the trick is finding that ideal spot between those.

Like Kramer on Seinfeld.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r235gwc_dxk

04-04-2019, 11:06 AM

#23

crewdawg

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Joined APC: Jul 2006

Posts: 5,540

Quote:

Originally Posted by gzsg

There is no time value of money. We would never pass a TA without full retro pay.

No need to rush ever.

TVM is most certainly a thing. I agree that there is no need to rush, but to say there is no TVM is being obtuse. There is also no need to unnecessarily lengthen negotiations chasing items that will likely come to fruition. That said, I'm ready for a lengthy process and have plenty of capital available if needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nAAtive

Trust me we at AA will not be ahead of you. We will sign ours after yours and probably for the best with it being negotiated by APA...

Wait, so you're saying that a stand alone union is the answer to all problems?!?! Good thing you don't have access to chitchat...heads might explode.

04-04-2019, 11:15 AM

#24

hockeypilot44

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Joined APC: Jul 2008

Posts: 4,920

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoop

Both can be correct. There is a TVM but also no reason to rush. Yes we will get retro for pay but there is no retro for QOL items.

For all those who want QOL items first and foremost keep in mind we will not see any of those items while in negotiations.

So no need to rush, a great deal in 2 years would be better for most than a good deal right away - except for all those who retire in the next two years and do not get to enjoy any of the QOL improvements.

Like most things in life there is a trade off. Overall I say take our time for the best deal possible.

Scoop

History has shown that at a certain point past the amendable date that retro becomes a signing bonus. History has also shown that a pilot group has never voted down a TA based on lack of retro. I'm not saying I want a rushed contract. I am saying that I do want a contract and don't want to go more than 2 years past the amendable date without one.

04-04-2019, 11:36 AM

#25

HTBH

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Posts: 270

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyallnite

The ONLY difference this time is AA and UAL going through before us. Clearly, we will need to top whatever they achieve.

I will be shocked if UAL or AA come anywhere close to a deal prior to us. Several friends at both airlines have told me their negotiation strategy is basically waiting us out and saying “Delta plus a dollar”.

04-04-2019, 12:43 PM

#26

Gunfighter

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Posts: 4,456

Quote:

Originally Posted by HTBH

Several friends at both airlines have told me their negotiation strategy is basically waiting us out and saying “Delta plus a dollar”.

Delta management knows this, they run a great operation and expect to keep it that way. Negotiating the PWA on time keeps pilots focused on the operation and can be used as a pressure point against management at UAL and AA. Delta management also knows we have the determination to hold out for a good contract. They might as well negotiate quickly and use it against the competition.

04-04-2019, 12:49 PM

#27

gzsg

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunfighter

Spot on.....

04-04-2019, 12:51 PM

#28

FangsF15

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Posts: 4,136

Quote:

Originally Posted by nAAtive

Trust me we at AA will not be ahead of you. We will sign ours after yours and probably for the best with it being negotiated by APA...

Which is why we need a snap up clause... like United did in their last.

04-04-2019, 01:07 PM

#29

TED74

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Joined APC: Sep 2014

Posts: 4,907

Quote:

Originally Posted by FangsF15

Which is why we need a snap up clause... like United did in their last.

Meh. Management would price that in and I don't expect it'd pay back very handsomely. Let them be us plus a lil' on rates if they can get it. No way their profit sharing comes up to ours.

04-04-2019, 01:08 PM

#30

gzsg

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Joined APC: Oct 2009

Posts: 3,108

Quote:

Originally Posted by HTBH

I disagree. United has made good progress.

Kirby is in the honeymoon period and their performance is embarrassing at best. Their executives are under huge pressure to improve and that means getting the pilots on board.

IMO United will complete their deal this summer.