Notification time for training
 

If you’re going to initial training on a new plane, is there a minimum amount of one time required for notification? I had it sprung on me today for July. Kind of ****** on my July plans after the expected training was in August. I understand and accept that’s the nature of bidding onto a new aircraft etc etc.

15 Days for AE/VD
25 Days for MD

Thanks. Next question, any way to optimize time off in a training month? I have a spill over trip that goes into the first few days of the month of July and then training starts the 22nd. Would like to maximize time home. Commuter so reserve may not be ideal if it’s anything like vacation month bidding.
I think part of the deal is I can opt in for 48 hours off prior, no?

I thought I read a memo from ALPA saying that they aren’t allowed to put training on your schedule after the bids open up. Might be worth looking into at least. Don’t hold me to that though.

I think the company was putting training on the PBS schedule hours before bids closed and obviously that’s not cool.

There isn't any way to optimize it, other than bidding high time trips or dropping trips once they have been awarded. Training pay is prorated, so it will be a fixed amount of credit for the month (and not much!) so you'll still have to be in the Line Construction Window (ie, if the ALV is 80, LCW is 72:30-87:30), if training is 22 hours your other credit awarded in PBS for the month has to reach a minimum is 50:30).


The 48 hours off prior was a choice when you filled out your AE/VD/MD preferences - it's unpaid anyway, and I don't know of anyway to get it after the AE bid closed.

You simply call the training planner for that fleet and ask for it.

How about reinstatement?

Not sure, but since you must be reinstated by 6 bid periods, I would guess the note at 11F.2.a.2) would apply, which states no preposting time is required.

This is one of biggest screw jobs we have. Last time I had training, it started with 4 days left in bid month. Those 4 days of training paid 10 hours. I still had to bid full schedule that month with remaining days.

The next month, I finished training a few days before Thanksgiving. I asked for Thanksgiving off in icrew (there's a place to request OE days off). I then called ALPA about shadowbidding. I bid to work everyday and max out my schedule since I wouldn't be flying trips anyway. When it came time for OE, planner called me and said my options were to work Thanksgiving or I could have it off, but if I had it off she would PD my shadow trip that touched that day and I would lose the shadow trip pay. I elected to do that as it was only a 2 day trip. My 83 hour line dropped to 72:30. Alpa never told me they could drop shadow trips on days you wanted off. Here's the kicker. They are still allowed to assign OE trips on days where you have no shadow trips, but I hear they try and keep OE trips in the shadow footprint.

Good luck

I guess I am missing something in your rant. When you finish qual training, "they" (OE planners) can put a trip where ever so long as it is FAR117 compliant. Shadow bidding has zero effect on that. Shadow bidding is solely for pay purposes. You are getting paid the greater of the OE trip or the shadow trip when the two touch. If they put OE on that doesn't touch your shadow trip, then you are getting paid for the OE trip as well as the shadow trips. Some people like that extra pay.

Now, would it be nice to have the ability to place a few OE Golden Days on your sked? Sure. Maybe C2022 will get that for us. But, till then, it is what it is.

That actually explains his situation perfectly.

The company spends less money if they put the OE trip on top of a shadow trip, so they try to do that. He bid so that a shadow trip was on top of days he wanted off. Since he was asking the company to essentially pay him extra (since overlap would be greater of the two, not both) they balked and offered to accommodate him if he gave up the extra pay.

In other words, the company pays you a premium if they put an OE trip outside of your shadow trips so while they can put them anywhere, it's a bad idea to have a shadow trip on days you want off.

Does the credit (all 17 hours) for doing the CBTs prior to training get applied upon completion? I'm trying to figure out how screwed I'm going to get with credit for July....

Since your shadow days were over Thanksgiving you should have bid the biggest longest trip available backed up by any trip you can get to touch your shadow. Get two or even 3 trips in the shadow. Last time I had both a 7 and 6 day trip dropped and paid not a 10 hour two day. Generally the OE schedulers are so constrained by available OE slots that training you on top of the shadow trips is not even a consideration. It also contractually makes no difference as you are paid the highest of your bid trips in the shadow verses OE in the shadow. I suspect in your case the OE scheduler went out of there way to help you out. Had she honored your request to just not go over T-day she still has to fill that slot. It’s very possible she then had to plug a more senior pilot to train. The only way to make that Kosher is to PD those days do she can’t put training there.

It’s pay only not credit for the training.

It's pay only. Also the pay time is usually half the official run time.

... specifically, the official run time of the required material. There's no pay for completing the optional material, since the company knows as self-respecting professional pilots most of us will do that stuff for free.

That would be a nice addition!

Is it paid when you finish it or when you complete training

Just like quarterly CQ....pays automatically upon completion.

There is bad info in this thread on how the shadow period works. Not understanding how it works can be a 5 figure mistake. Read the contract and ALPA tools on bidding in a shadow period. Shadow time is incredibly lucrative.

.....yea, about 20 minutes.....test when u show up

Short answer for the shadow period is to pack in as much as possible during the bid because it will be dropped and paid. If OE is delayed every trip is dropped and paid until complete.

Great to know. I assume this is most beneficial when you have an entire month to shadow bid? In my case I think I finish the third week of the month, so I would shadow bid for the last week and the entire next month, ideally bidding “max credit”?

You will be assigned shadow time for the last week of the month and probably for a few days ibto the next month. You want to cram as much time as possible ibto the shadow time. The trip only has to touch the shadow. If you are in a category with 12 day trips you want a 12 day trip in that shadow ect.. If your shadow extends into the following month you want another 12 day trip touching it. If your a domestic pilot you want to try and get two 5 day trips touching that week.

In IQ my captain said (and several times in this thread it’s been mentioned) that if you bid a trip (over days you request off in the shadow period) that scheduling will put a trip on those days and say you bid for it even though you requested it off. This runs counter to my understanding that bidding in the shadow period is independent of your training schedule. I mean I understand they want to get your training done in that footprint but I also thought you could request days off in that period and that was a separate entity from your shadow bid in PBS. Just curious. I ended up flying on most of the days I requested off for OE but I smoked my 15 day shadow period bid with max credit and had my best month at delta pay wise.

My understanding is that the time you bid in the shadow period is considered as a whole against any IOE time performed in the shadow. You get paid the higher value. Now if they don’t get your IOE done in the shadow then the rules are as you describe for IOE trips outside the shadow. Free advice is not worth much so check with the union.

Shadow bidding is solely for pay determination. No other reason, no matter what anyone tells you. You are never awarded shadow trips (look below you on the Wide report and you'll see they either went to someone junior to you or into open time). They were never on your schedule. They were never dropped. PBS is just saying "if not for the shadow designation, here's how your bid would have played out."

OE schedulers know your shadow bid is not relevant to them, only the shadow period itself (that you don't control). It behooves them to get you complete ASAP, as their performance is measured by such metrics. You'll notice and experience (fleet dependent) that your quality of life is of little to no concern for them. For that reason, it would be nice to have IQ and OE golden days in the next contract. That being said, there could be a penalty paid for OE golden days depending on how/if we allowed them to affect shadow bidding.

Wow. Info overload for me. I’ll be sure to read up on it did the next bid period. I’m sure the union has a guide for it, or the scheduling reference handbook?

That’s what I always thought. My OE requests not working out I assumed just meant that they had no obligation to honor it. Thanks to you and SF for the responses.