Pass travel/jumpseat
 

So I have Delta pass travel through my spouse and I work at another airline. Had spouse list me as S3B but flight was pretty full so I listed for jumpseat (OAL obviously) and the gate agent was giving me grief about having the two listings. I understand that DL pilots can reserve the jumpseat and if you do that you are not supposed to have a pass travel listing for same flight but that was not the case here. Was I in the wrong or was that kosher?

I would guess that there is a copy of Pass Protocol in mail for you to read and initial.

Agent was correct. If you list for the JS, you are expected to cancel the nrsa record locator.

Can you please cite a resource that explicitly says as much because I could not find anything that covers this particular scenario.

This is only for us on us. Dci can put their name in the hat for the JS and gate agents just add their name to the bottom of the list. Especially because they can't reserve and can be bumped by a mainline or operating airline pilot. Same with us on DCI. You'll have two listings at the gate.

Why S3B and not S3?

We don’t do a lot of pass travel but we thought unaccompanied family were S3B. Is that incorrect?

Spouses and dependants are S3 on Delta mainline regardless of whether the employee is with them or not.

Once I was second on nonrev list and a senior captain was listed for js but also as nonrev under his senior mamas fa benes. There was one seat left at about d-20 when she called his name out. He said what’s the seat. She said middle Econ comfort he said ok then can you cancel my js res. The agent was frustrated and told him that wasn’t correct. He told her to **** off and walked down to his seat. I got the js in the end. He looked real close to retirement so don’t think he cared two bits about what the fom said or an agent thought.

Yeah. That is definitely in violation of the travel policy. Would really be a bummer for him if he lost his wife and his right before retirement.

Here's what I do. "Hey, I'm listed as a non-rev but I'd be happy to take the JS if you need it to get everyone on." I've never once gotten a bad attitude about it or any other reaction that wasn't thanking me.

Also, if he was S3B, wouldn't that be a regional carrier?

I haven't found explicit guidance, but enough that I can understand an agent getting heartburn. Deep in the bowels of Deltanet (knowledge management word search), I see this note in JS guidance:

"Note: Jumpseat riders are not permitted to activate as a nonrevenue passenger on the same flight where they have checked-in for the jumpseat."

Frankly, I don't even know what activate means. But if you have two listings and are only going to check in for one, that's problematic, right? Why have the other one... unless you're going to cancel after checking in and check in for the other listing? Or were you checking in for both, which obviously complicates the agent's job, who in this scenario was (possibly) busy trying to maximize butts in seats since you implied it was full?

Space available travel sucks, plain and simple. Sucks for those doing it and sucks for the agents trying to please their bosses with D0 perfection, NRSA and late/delayed/misconnect passengers running last-minute to catch the seat they paid for. I understand it's the job they signed up for, but I'm not sure you could pay me enough to do it day in and day out.

DCI pilots are not supposed to list for both jumpseat and nonrev either. If bumped from the jumpseat they flow back to a standby listing which has various success depending on whether the agent has already been clearing nonrevs. The company policy doesn't state "Delta pilots," it states "jumpseaters."


The company policy is that jumpseaters can't be listed on another reservation for the flight. You also can't jumpseat if you ever had a confirmed seat on that flight.

"Activate" means check in for it. You can have a nonrevenue listing but you cannot check in for it if you are listed for the jumpseat. Basically, any situation which could cause for the system to attempt to assign you two seats, regardless of where they are, is not permitted.

If by "confirmed" you mean a revenue ticket.... I believe it's actually even more restrictive saying you are not allowed to non-rev on any market (city pair) that you hold a revenue ticket on for that day. If your "confirmed" PS on a company ticket, they'd love for you to take the JS instead.

Supposedly, according to a red coat at my outstation, this is actually what will get you flagged by the computer the quickest for pass revocation, (or selling buddy passes).

You are correct, although by the rules as well as ALPA jumpseat policy, you aren't to take the jumpseat on a flight you had a confirmed seat on (positive space or not) or a flight that your company SHOULD have purchased you a confirmed seat on. Some smaller carriers have been known to ask pilots to jumpseat so they didn't have to buy a deadhead ticket on another airline.

That is a huge no-no. Doing that nonsense, when caught, could easilly get the individual removed as well as the entire carrier from the recip JS agreement.

If your management even suggests this tell them NO WAY.

I was using that as an example of something not permitted if it wasn't obvious.

But again, I’m not DL (or DCI). Obviously Delta can put whatever restrictions they want on their own employees. For me though, I would assume my jumpseat restrictions are whatever the reciprocal agreement says. That guidance seems aimed at Delta employees.

As for pass riding, obviously I’m bound by Delta’s restrictions, but like I said, I couldn’t find anything that really covers this scenario at least for non DL employees.

Shouldn’t I be able to use my pass travel while simultaneously exercising offline reciprocal jumpseat privileges? Delta seems to be the only place that has an issue with this

It is overall Delta jumpseat policy and if you are caught doing so you can lose both your pass travel benefits and jumpseat ability on Delta. Your spouse could lose their pass benefits as well (and given the relationship it would probably be both you and your spouse if they go after you). This has been explained to you and it is common in the industry. Other than those with regular nonrev agreements that specifically allow their dual listing flow back United should not allow it either. IE if your spouse worked at United they would not allow you to create two standalone listings such as you want to do on Delta as OAL jumpseat and spousal benefits operate on different priority levels.

You also are ignoring that you are using Delta company pass benefits and not just your company's reciprocal agreement (which still says no other listings anyway). This means you are under Delta's employee pass rules regardless as a spouse in addition to OAL jumpseat as applicable. You might not work for Delta, but if you want your spouse to then you need to consider employee rules. I actually am wondering how long you've been in the industry if you think using spousal benefits doesn't mean needing to follow those rules.

Interesting take. You seem to be taking the sea lawyer stratedgy of based on what you don't see in a policy, you can therefore get away with more than a DL pilot can on DL equipment WRT DL JS and DL pass privileges can get away with, when you yourself are referring to the same situation on a DL JS with DL pass benefits.

While its possible that's technically the case (and if so, only by accidental omission and very clearly not by intent) that would, best case, comprise a technicality/loophole that I would not want to rely on as an affirmative defense.

Up to you though.

Straw poll.

If available to option into would you exchange your annual pass travel benefits for a PS coach seat to and from work as a commuter?

For one? LOL no. Literally zero pilots would.

For unlimited PS to and from work? That would have some takers for sure.

How about first we see what we can get instead of buddy passes that cost more than some tickets do and don't get a seat assigned until V1.

Well the question is as an annual opt in or out. Exchange the years pass travel for ps coach seats to and from work?

I'd probably go for it... it'd be a tough decision though.

Well im seeing it as a annual election program. On ones pass anniversary date.

Since commuting comes and goes over a career...one could elect the option vs pass travel for the coming year.

How about we give up our buddy passes. I’d give those up for 1 PS pass for everyone on my travel benefits per year.

Obviously I was in the wrong on this one. Not going to happen again. I’m accustomed to a different system where this is fine. Was not previously aware this was the case with Delta. That’s why I asked here. It’s not something that is obvious from the pass travel literature I read.

I personally don’t see why some of you think that this limitation is a good thing but if that’s the rule, then that’s the rule.

Thank you all for the info.

Don't let some of these McStuffy literalists deter you. Some people here get upset when you don't sign the release neatly.

Like I've said, if you list non-rev and show up and tell the gate agent "if it's available, I'd happy to take the Jumpseat to get more standbys on" you'll have no problem. If it gives the appearance you are trying to help them out, they will list you in a heartbeat. I've never once had a problem. And I've never been threatened to get fired or lose my pass benefits like some people are claiming.

Of course you haven’t had a problem doing what you describe above because, wait for it............it’s not against company policy! It’s the smart thing to do. Now going up to the agent and telling them you have a JS and nonrev listing on the same flight.......not so smart, against company policy and could lead to a reduction in pass benefits (not that they are worth much now.)

Denny

That isn't at all what the OP was describing. No one is saying that your example is acceptable. The OP can't even "list" for a JS because he's OAL.

Don’t know about you but I read he had two listings from his initial post. How he got those two listings is irrelevant.

Denny

And the situation I'm describing is the exact same scenario. In order to clear you in CASS, that have to list you on the Jumpseat. Most gate agents are happy to do that if it gets more people on.

I don't think its a good thing. Many years ago you could list in back and fill out a paper JS pass on mainline or DCI, although mainline was slower to get unlimited "flowback". That was lower tech than what we have today but it worked far better and was easier for the gate agents too. All they had to do was stack the JS slips in order (they were very easy to put in order with a quick glance) and everyone who could get on got on.

You could even fill out a JS slip "if needed" where if you wanted to be nice to get another non revver on who couldn't JS and the plane was going to leave without the JS full you could volunteer to take it to help them out.

Now suddenly with all the tech (ikr) common and easy things like that are now scandalous. I've heard AA (I think, maybe its someone else) has a "dual listing" procedure that works well.

But what happens if that's at the last minute? You won't have the ability to logon and cancel your non-rev res, so its up to them to do it and what if they don't. Now you're a rogue dual lister etc.

Go back and reread what you said. It is not the same. Having two listing (jumpseat and nonrev) on one side then having one listing (nonrev) and going to the agent and saying you will take the jumpseat to get another person on are two different scenarios. One a no no and two the right thing to do.

Denny

Those are the exact same things just said a different way. If you reserve the JS and book a non rev hoping to get a better seat, that's one thing. That guy can't even do that. Either way you slice it, in the system it looks identical.

He made a non rev reservation and then actually listed for the JS at the gate...he did NOT do as you suggested and tell the agent "if you need me too, I will take the Jumpseat." Not the same thing.

Frankly I don't really care about it.

Denny