fishforfun

And this is what disappoints me. Why are we paying millions to negotiate “industry average”? If we can’t get top of the industry and a “me too” clause to stay at the top for a long time then I’d hope to see improvements in every other section with absolutely zero concessions. I guess I need to be prepared to be disappointed it sounds like.

I have been around for the end of our last contract negotiations and just before that at a company that had just signed in a contract. The problem with “industry average” is eventually it means you just fall behind.

Scoop

Well UAL and AMR pilots are also paying millions. So are SWA, UPS, and FDX pilots. That is exactly why trading PS for pay is a loser.

Scoop

Scooter432

It’s amazing how many people are focused on the rates. The rates are always going to be market plus or minus a buck or two amongst the big 4. Pointless to waste any kind of leverage on them.

Keep PS.. restore work rules, improve benefits.

notEnuf

This is mostly true. The first mover will set the market. Delta might have an incentive to get this done if they are willing to spend to add costs to the competition.

Ok, I couldn’t keep a straight face while typing the last sentence. It’s going to be awhile and pay is going to be UAL +1%. QOL all the way.

sailingfun

First I want yo say I prefer our current split between pay and PS and don’t advocate a change however there are some things left out in the discussion.
When we monetized 2% of the profit sharing in contract 2012 we got 2% higher pay rates. Delta Contract 2012 was the contract that broke the chapter 11 logjam and started the rates back up. American and UAL quickly matched our rates including the monetized 2%. Pilots then screamed foul that we lost the 2%. That’s not the case. It’s still in our rates today. I don’t believe we got smaller raises because that 2% was added to the 2012 rates. In addition future raises compounded that 2% and its worth close to 3% today.
Management wanted to monetize some of the PS for precisely the above reason. They were confident of profits going forward and wanted to force AA, SWA and UAL to match those rates and essentially bare some of our PS costs with their lower profit rates.
The problem many pilots seem to have with switching profit sharing to raises is that AA, SWA and UAL would match and we would not make more than they make. Personally I could care less. I only care what I make.
If you want to argue against monetizing profit sharing a more logical method would be that it could potentially reduce future raises. There may be some truth to that but I think going forward raises are going to be mostly inflationary with perhaps a bump above that level depending on if Delta ever actually has trouble recruiting pilots.

notEnuf

There’s your argument for non rate improvement. COLA is what you can expect and PS will not be forfeited. You don’t care what you make because you’re near the end of your career or know the market will be set before we get a TA? I’m kinda with you on this because I don’t think we will have much influence being #2 or #3 the get a TA. All the more reason to keep profit sharing and concentrate on QOL items and a retake on SCOPE.

Scoop

First I want to say I prefer our current split between pay and PS and don’t advocate a change ...

Well if it was a good move for the first 2% then why not continue with it? Or was it perhaps not a good move after all?

When we monetized 2% of the profit sharing in contract 2012 we got 2% higher pay rates

I don't buy this at all but we will never know, alternate history and all. But we were also told we would lose billions if we did not accept TA-1. Standard negotiating tactics, not some robed guy coming down a mountain with clay tablets.

It’s still in our rates today.

Just as it would have been in our PS every year. Since we have been above the PS triggers so far this has not gained us one cent even if you believe our rates were bumped by 2% which I don't.

I don’t believe we got smaller raises because that 2% was added to the 2012 rates.

I disagree, but we will never know for sure. Additionally if you believe that then should we should continue trading PS for pay rates? If so how many cycles until our PS is reduced to trivial levels?

The problem many pilots seem to have with switching profit sharing to raises is that AA, SWA and UAL would match and we would not make more than they make.


I don't care what the other guys make but this argument assumes that we will always be the one raising the bar. What about when UAL, AMR, or FDX raises the bar and we rise up to them? Not a good long term strategy. Just as we will probably not always make 5B+ profits every year into perpetuity, DAL Pilots will probably not always lead the industry in pay-rates.

Once upon a time a very wise Pilot admonished his fellow Pilots that under the constraints of the RLA and NMB no airline will every have pay rates that rise much above their peers. This appears to be correct.

The effects of PS on negotiations however are relatively recent without any section 6 track record. I firmly believe that our current PS was a fortuitous fluke that DALPA stumbled into and the company never assumed would pay out as it is. We would be fools to trade away this very lucrative piece of our PWA.

Scoop

fishforfun

It’s only lucrative if the company is profitable to a certain level. The company can continue to be profitable but not pay any profit sharing. That’s not so lucrative.

You guys have made solid arguments and I like to gamble and I feel confident if Buffet likes us we must be doing something correct. But that’s all our profit sharing is, a gamble.

sailingfun

Our profit sharing starts with the first dime of profit.

Crown

I think it'd be massively foolish to stop betting on it at this point