Scoop

What is the consensus, if there even is a concensus, on being unable to make a crossing restriction and yet leaving in a de-rated climb? I see this all the time out of HND on the 330 - we will be showing unable to meet a crossing restriction and yet we have our lowest climb power set via a derate. Many Pilots seem adamant about not removing the derate. I understand that there is a financial incentive for DAL to use a reduced climb as much as possible but some folks seem to be taking it to an extreme. Yes, ATC may give you some relief if you ask but it seems foolish to plan on relief and then climbing out with less than full climb power and assume that ATC will oblige.

Sometimes its not even close and we need relief, but other times a simple change from D2 to D1 will solve the problem. There is definitely a communication issue out of HND that complicates the issues and at times to be honest I wasn't even sure if we were granted relief or told to make the constraint requiring an additional radio call. All of this seems foolish IMHO and definitely adds unnecassarily to the Pilot workload at a minimum and could result in a loss of seperation.

Seems to me DAL can save money so the 4th floor pushes it and the schoolhouse then inculcates it into our procedures without any consideration that it may not be appropriate at all times. Besides seeming to violate common sense it definitely violates the FOM priorities as laid out in section 1.1 of the FOM.

Thoughts?

Scoop

FangsF15

Can’t speak to the 330. But The 321 CEO fleet also started a re-rate program. They even have a climb strategy in the FCTM for making crossing restrictions (basically leaving it at Flaps 1, and climbing slow). But the program was halted suddenly, supposedly after network got wind we were leaving passengers behind, costing them more money than they were supposedly saving by reducing the number of lifetime overhauls by one... They have halted any further re-rates, and that’s been something like a year ago. Haven’t heard much since.

Another example of stepping over dollars to pick up dimes, and the left-hand not really know what the right hand is doing.

Tinpusher007

It is my understanding that the derate is part of the lease agreement with RR for the Trents and therefore a required procedure. But FCTM 4.1.11 is pretty unambiguous in how to deal with the very situation you are describing at HND. In particular, the note at the end gives specific guidance on airports with restrictive climb restrictions.

GogglesPisano

No derate climbs on the 7ER.

Tinpusher007

This is a specific procedure on the 330, and maybe the 350. The initial derate setting reduces climb thrust by 12% and then 8% until full climb thrust is restored after the climb rate dwindles to approx 500 fpm. Seems practical for an aircraft that often gets close to MTOW doesn't it?

HandFlyorDie

717 has a couple airports with climb restrictions. Fleet newsletters have had LCPs telling load full climb power, delay slat retraction, and check before departure to coordinate relief as techniques. I would say removing the derate is totally kosher, at least on our fleet.

Nordhavn

What kind of altitude restriction are you talking about? I don't know Airbus but Boeing derates "wash out" at 15K. Climb 2 vs. Climb even around 10000 feet doesn't make much difference in climb rate.

Tinpusher007

On the A330, the washout occurs between FL270-300. But we do have guidance to use full climb thrust, when necessary, such as to meet climb restrictions.

PilotFrog

The technique I've seen used to make sure you make those crossing restrictions on the Rover departures is to keep climbing at 250 kts instead of accelerating. Departure control also seems to like that because we usually get an earlier turn to INUBO. Making INUBO at 250 is sometimes quite difficult at that point, but center has always been ok with that and sometimes even clears us farther down the line even to ADNAP cutting a considerable amount of time.

Nordhavn

Wow. I would think that at the operating weight out of HND you wouldn't have a whole lot of excess power. If you are max gross weight it seems you would not be able to derate climb thrust much especially into the flight levels. I would say 250 Kts would be the best way to handle it otherwise you will have to proceed so far north to get above the NRT arrivals before you can proceed to your track.