5/20 Town Hall w/ Ed and Glen, 1300 EDT
05-23-2020, 12:51 PM
#171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: NYC 7ERA
Posts: 1,966
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
If management would have been serious in negotiations........maybe. But I don't believe they ever were and were trying to drag this out.
All good questions. Time will tell...........but probably not for you and me!
Denny
All good questions. Time will tell...........but probably not for you and me!
Denny
I don't think anyone thought it would get this stupid.
05-23-2020, 01:49 PM
#173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I think we could have had a 8% raise at signing, 18% DC plan, 14 hour long call, tightened scope, 4% raises each year, 330 bundled with the 350, furlough provisions updated to pilots on the property 31Dec19, ALV reduced to 78 in exchange for 71 to 85 spread, no reserve trips assigned beyond ALV plus 5. All the above items combines would be a small percentage of our actual ask.
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
In March the MEC was realistic and cooperative offering April bidding relief, SILs and and asking for a pilot Early
Retirement Program to mitigate furloughs while saving the company money - and the company were still obstructionists.
Seems one side has adjusted and the other side never will.
Regardless of whatever we think about the MEC at any point in time there is only one side who is ultimately looking out for the pilot group.
05-23-2020, 02:06 PM
#174
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by CX500T
I think management knew the economy was due for a cyclic down.. Therefore the urge to drag it out.
I don't think anyone thought it would get this stupid.
I don't think anyone thought it would get this stupid.
........
05-24-2020, 07:38 AM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I think we could have had a 8% raise at signing, 18% DC plan, 14 hour long call, tightened scope, 4% raises each year, 330 bundled with the 350, furlough provisions updated to pilots on the property 31Dec19, ALV reduced to 78 in exchange for 71 to 85 spread, no reserve trips assigned beyond ALV plus 5. All the above items combines would be a small percentage of our actual ask.
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
So we'd have all these improvements, not give up anything to get them, but the fact that we don't have them now (and higher costs) will hurt us? The only logical deduction I can reverse engineer from that is that you think concessions are coming, and had we negotiated those hypothetical gains, we could then give them back and be where we are now? So are you referring to BK? If so, where is the evidence that the courts arbitrarily impose fixed percentages irrespective of costs?
If it isn't BK, then any voluntary concessions we would give to pay rates scope or work rules (don't see that getting past the Memory Rat anyway) would in theory be whatever they would be. So under that scenario, why would we give more just because we had more? That doesn't make much sense or seem plausible either, and even if it did, we're already there now in this hypothetical world anyway; we just "gave" that sweet 8/4/4 back along with 2% DC and a little bit of scope and work rule cuts relative to that fantasy early/on time/all gains CBA parralel universe hypothetical.
Finally, where is the evidence the company would have swiftly given us all of that anyway, with no givebacks nonetheless? I'll spot you the 25%DC+250K plus ups as radical non starters, but even if we assume our entire ask was like that in every section, where is the mountain of evidence anyone can point to for the company's desire for this alternate reality we could be in? And BK or not, if we're subject to what our competitors do WRT cuts, then we'd just have that much further to fall and would be that much less competitive every day. Or maybe we'd ride it out unscathed with 17% higher rates and a 13% higher DC on top of those 17% higher rates, if only DALPA wasn't unreasonable or something? And how would that help us now exactly?
05-24-2020, 11:23 AM
#176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 891
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I think we could have had a 8% raise at signing, 18% DC plan, 14 hour long call, tightened scope, 4% raises each year, 330 bundled with the 350, furlough provisions updated to pilots on the property 31Dec19, ALV reduced to 78 in exchange for 71 to 85 spread, no reserve trips assigned beyond ALV plus 5. All the above items combines would be a small percentage of our actual ask.
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
I think what you have here would have been a realistic TA. It also would have been voted down. Not like TA1, but also not very close. Most people had their sights set on major qol items or “restoration” that you don’t have listed here and would have voted no. And those on the fence would have taken the (wrong) lesson from last time that if they voted no, they would get more.
05-24-2020, 11:41 AM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,838
Originally Posted by bugman61
I think what you have here would have been a realistic TA. It also would have been voted down. Not like TA1, but also not very close. Most people had their sights set on major qol items or “restoration” that you don’t have listed here and would have voted no. And those on the fence would have taken the (wrong) lesson from last time that if they voted no, they would get more.
I think some people are trying make up "lessons" from TA1 that have no basis in reality because they were responsible for that turd and are still trying to justify their position. One of the correct lessons is "don't believe your own press".
05-24-2020, 12:15 PM
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 891
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Some "major" QOL items probably don't cost very much, but the company refuses to talk about them because of the "other employee" issue (where have we seen this before?). What do you do then? Simply drop it? Add two or three dropped items like that, and that's a good way to spend another million plus on passing a TA that will fail.
I think some people are trying make up "lessons" from TA1 that have no basis in reality because they were responsible for that turd and are still trying to justify their position. One of the correct lessons is "don't believe your own press".
I think some people are trying make up "lessons" from TA1 that have no basis in reality because they were responsible for that turd and are still trying to justify their position. One of the correct lessons is "don't believe your own press".
I don’t disagree with anything you said.
05-24-2020, 03:21 PM
#179
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,027
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I think we could have had a 8% raise at signing, 18% DC plan, 14 hour long call, tightened scope, 4% raises each year, 330 bundled with the 350, furlough provisions updated to pilots on the property 31Dec19, ALV reduced to 78 in exchange for 71 to 85 spread, no reserve trips assigned beyond ALV plus 5. All the above items combines would be a small percentage of our actual ask.
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
I don’t quite comprehend the last part of your post. I gather you think it would be better to negotiate from a position of weakness verses strength. Keep one other thing in mind. Our entire justification for our 3 billion ask was the profitability of the company. When mediation resumes what do we say to the mediator now? What will the company ask? Where will our competitors be at. Will they be at a higher or lower baseline if they grant concessions had we completed the contract?
