contrails

Of course we all know that the 737 typically had better trips and more varied flying while the Airbus 320 had lousier trips but more comfortable cockpit. But it is the 717 that I would like to compare the 737 to.

Anyone on here who has flown both the 737 and 717?

I found the 717 seats to be uncomfortable. Compounding that is the fact that there is more [unpaid] cockpit time during a typical workday of 3-4 legs. That time sitting there adds up, and even a 6 hour block day can mean 8-9 hours in the seat. At that point, might as well take the 5-6 hour transcon on the 737 that people complain about and just be mindful to stand up and stretch as often as needed.

If you've flown both...how do the seats themselves compare? Not as much side room towards the windows on the 737, I know that...do they have ipad charging ports, hot mics, any little stuff like that at least? I know it's loud but is the hot mic going to be fleet-wide on the 737 eventually?

717 F/O bag gets lifted up to chest height into a cabinet that, while just about back to row 1, it's at least reserved for the F/O bag. 737 F/O luggage goes . . . into some closet behind first class with F/A bags, is that accurate?

How is the 737 training program compared to the 717? The latter was a nice 'fresh start' as a post-merge fleet and there didn't seem to be much at all in the way of "we did it this way on the MD..." or "There's a few different techniques on this." Rather, it was all very standard. The last thing I am interested in is a training program that compounds the already not-great Virginia Avenue experience.

The 717 avionics and flight management seemed to work well and was predictable. Never saw VNAV ("PROF") really act up much, always could get down if needed like a true DC-9, the FMS was very straightforward. Is learning the 737 in this aspect also learning how to babysit the automation? I know it's no MadDog but does it work properly like the 717 seems to?

Thanks if you have time in both airplanes and can vouch for any of this stuff. I followed the types of trips pre-virus so if they end up being the same down the road I already am familiar with all that. Just wondering about the time spent between swiping one's badge at the gate and packing up for the next ship change.

Like many, hopefully I don't need to worry about it -- but might as well make and informed backup plan.

GogglesPisano

I've flown both. I much prefer the 737 -- and not just because of the trips.

Both seats are terrible.
Both flight decks are tight.
Both jumpseats are medieval.
Both tend to overspeed on descent. The 717 will keep the thrust levers up while Betty is screaming at you -- not quite like how the Vol 2 reads. In the 737 it's a write-up and a "good to go." In the 717 it's a structural inspection.

717 pros:
1) The noise level is reduced.
2) The AP is more capable (S/E autoland, auto G/A ...)
3) It has an EICAS (or EAD or whatever Douglas called it.)

717 cons:
1) The windows suck. 3 years and I still couldn't get used to the beam in front of my face. They're straight off the DC8, meaning probably the DC6. If you're in the left seat you will occasionally find yourself opening your side window to park at night because the combination of rain and crazing makes them virtually opaque.
2) The wipers are the most useless devices in the history of aviation -- unless you like noise. They conveniently "park" directly in front of your face. You will at some point discover that opening your side window and pouring water on the windscreen while selecting "PARK" may aid the process. Do not try this in flight.
3) The compass that has to be viewed through a mirror -- the second most useless thing in the history of aviation
4) De-ice fluid on your lap.
5) It's fly-by-tab. Meaning heavy and unresponsive. And the tail bangs around in the wind while taxiing.
6) The first GPWS altitude call-out is "1,000." In other words, "Ha ha, you waited too late to configure. I know every other aircraft calls out 2,500 but ... I don't."

In other words it's a shortened MD88 with MD11 glass. In other words, it's a Douglas.

737 pros:
1) It's a Boeing. Meaning it's hydraulic and you can fly it with your fingertips. It's the mainline jet you bring to an airshow because it's a joy to fly.
2) It doesn't break. Seriously, I've had probably a dozen MEL's in the year that I've flown it. There are no nuisance messages because there's no EICAS. Sometimes having a 1960's Fischer-Price alarm system is a good thing. It was rare not to have an MEL on every 717 leg (usually the APU during the summer -- yes, really.)
3) Without a doubt it has the most powerful packs I've encountered (7 type-ratings.) If you want to freeze in August this is your plane.

737 cons:
1) You have to look up at the overhead a lot.
2) The flight deck is loud. Hot mics are standard now. I wear earplugs under DC's and no issues with noise. I lose the headsets at FL180 on every flight over an hour. The earplugs go in from pushback to shutdown. If you're up at cruise without any protection you will become fatigued and receive some possible hearing damage. I see some guys wear headsets for 5 hours but personally I think they're insane -- or really hate earplugs.
3) You are always worried about a tailstrike except on the -700. We are so worried about it on takeoff we tend to eat up too much runway.

When I was hired the "800" was the hot rod of the fleet and fairly senior. Since the merger a lot of that "You'll never catch me in an Airbus," you'd here from the South guys has waned. Mostly due to exposure. Plus a lot of new blood has changed the culture. Now we have guys claiming the 737 is the new "88" at Delta. That's okay with me since I love flying the jet and talk like that will only drive it more junior.

There's no doubt Airbus builds a superior flight deck. No doubt -- and I've flown the 320. But right now I'm hoping to stay on my noisy, cramped, 1960's overhead, can't-put-anything-in-the-side-pocket-of-your-suitcase 737. The only guys I've found to be impressed with the 717 had come off the 88.

So if you're senior to me -- yes, the 737 sucks.

charleyvarrick

Are the 717 seats different than the 88/90 seats?

Scoop

Good post Googles but you forgot a couple of things:

The bag shredding device that is built into the bag storage area. Yes, I know you can turn your bag on its side - but why? I mean its like the Boeing engineers never though anyone would store a bag in the bag storage area.

You also mentioned the lack of any call-out above 1000' AGL on the 717 but what about the lack of 1000' to go on level offs on the 737. I still find it hard to fathom that there is no 1000' to level off audible alert.

What about the little folding panel on the yoke that is used to clip your paper so you can write on your little piece of paper. You know the one that abruptly folds on about the third written letter making your writing illegible. Of course you can hold it up with your other hand but once again - why?

Oh yeah state of the art highfalutin 1953 seats that can both recline and move aft - just not both at the same time. This is really not that big of a disadvantage - if your a friggin Hobbit! But yes, for human beings it sucks.

I could go on but the ice in my scotch is starting to melt.

OBTW just to be balanced the displays on the 737 are awesome for a 1960s aircraft and it is very reliable.

Scoop

GogglesPisano

The 757/767 and (I believe) the 320 are the same -- no audible callout. Having started my airline career on the noisy CRJ I thought the callout was regulatory. But I believe the FAR 25 verbiage is audible or visual. Hence the little white light on the 757/767 and the box appearing over the altitude on the 737.

I much prefer visual.

connollc

Goggles,

Excellent, detailed and concise comparison...I known Im not the only one who appreciates it.

contrails

Thanks a lot Goggles, the perspective of someone who has flown both was just what I was looking for. I have to consider the fact that I have already flown the 717 and so training, if displaced, would be easier because just flipping through the LOD and old flashcards, it was all coming back to me.

Good writeup of the 737; you do offer a glimmer of hope.

I'm 6'1" though -- I found the 717 seat not only uncomfortable but now looking back on it with Airbus time, I never realize how cramped I was as far as legroom, recline, where to put my feet in cruise.

In the Airbus in cruise I recline the backrest all the way to the max and flip the headrest forward a bit. I'm laying back a little but my head is straight forward.

I just wonder how much less recline I'd be able to get away with in the 737 if I wanted any amount of foot space at all. I'm guessing the 737 seat doesn't even recline as much even if the seat is all the way forward in the track.

If I plan to go back to the Bus at some point, maybe seniority rules in the interim because neither option sounds fantastic. (I know either option is better than furlough -- just sayin'...why not try to be comfortable at work)

bohicagain

I've flown both and with the exception of the FMS the 717 is hands down a more pilot friendly airplane.

Yes the windows suck but it's more spacious. FA crews are friendlier and the FO has a dedicated carry on bag storage.

No red eyes and most legs were under 2 hours.
Hated those 5:15 block on the 73 with no meals. It was nice to do a 1 and done though.

I'm 6'3 and once I'm seated it's all good. Just have to squeeze myself in the seat on the 71. Could still fit a first class tray between me and yolk. On the 73 as an B I was not able to fit a first class tray even all the way back.

GucciBoy

Yes. I don’t think they have much parts commonality if any.

GliderCFI

At 6'5" I can at least put my left leg in the giant gap to the left of the pedals on the 717. My understanding is the 737 the only way to stretch your legs is to land. Or go to the lav.