This is what the Council 20 update said from March:

So reserve pilots working the same number of days for less pay was in the offer from the company back in March.

Are you already in the top-paying category you expect to stabilize in for a while? I'm not. ALV reduction, leading to the same wide body flying spread over more pilots, will accelerate my movement into higher paying (and for my circumstances, better qol) WBB and NBA jobs.

Believe it or not, plenty of folks don't need more money to be happier or gain "quality of life." As evidenced by hundreds of pilots taking a significant pay cut to shed obligations at work, there's a good number of us interested in a lower floor of hourly obligation to Delta. Clearly that isn't the case for everyone... and they can WS/swap/max credit themselves up to work more even with a reduced ALV.

Alpa is an association. You have a vote. So do I. There’s also a good number of us interested in not giving up pay via a lower ALV. I agree w/ you that plenty of “folks” don’t need more money to be happier... while I’m sure you were not specifically referring to me or preaching to me, I’ll point out that I was furloughed for 5+ years and have two in high school. College soon. It appears from your post you are younger and junior to me. You have a better future ahead of you, seniority wise than I do and will benefit from the contract we worked on before you arrived. So don’t worry, it’ll come. In the meantime enjoy the ride.


PS-Good luck trying to get Delta, now or ever, to agree to a permanent lower ALV. That means more pilots. It’ll never happen. Be realistic and if you ever get to the MEC realize that to negotiate for impossible wants is a waste of time.

You do also realize this is a seniority based system. So you can either chase seniority or money or a combination of both. I flew with captains back in 2001 when I was hired that were flight engineers on reserve for 8-10 years on the 727. Today most recently we had 1 year probationary captains. I don’t recall more of the junior folk back then ever bringing up lower ALVs. This industry is cyclical. It’ll come back and then like I said, you’ll even be better off then my seniority will ever be.

Be happy you or I never sat side saddle for 8-10 years on reserve... 5 of that on B scale.

I intend to preach to no one, so I'm sorry if you took it that way. Every situation is unique... I've got younger kids, a working spouse, and the GI bill to pay for half of college. I sat the lost decade out on the sidelines working various part time jobs for Uncle Sam. I recognize my needs aren't the same as anyone else's. That being said, I'd prefer the default to be a lower minimum amount of obligation to my employer, with mechanisms for those who want to work more to do so. The fact that I could (pre- and presumably post-covid) be awarded 89 hours of hard-time flying, three months in a row, during my kids' summer months with little to no opportunity to reduce that schedule, is ridiculous. Granted, IVDs have helped. But that ALV+7.5 hours of the LCW, simply to carry the middle where it is...or +15 to keep the bottom from being too low for those who want the hours... really adds up. I wish it didn't take a global pandemic and all that came with it to finally have some abundant time home with the family.

There are all sorts of ways we could provide relief at the high end to preserve earning potential for the masses who want to, or need to work (i.e., drop anything over the threshold with only half of the reserves required, paid APD, more summer vacation, etc.).

Like most of us, I have friends all over the net worth and income spectra. There's very little correlation in either of those metrics and their personal or familial happiness. As I actually think about it, I think my highest earner friend (ortho surgeon) is probably the least happy. But there's a strong inverse correlation between how much time my friends and their spouses spend at work and their satisfaction with life and parenthood. I'm just doing what I can to learn from those anecdotes, and the 1807 who took time over money, to avoid the pitfalls of chasing the almighty dollar. It's important and it's an enabler... but it doesn't come without some permanent tradeoffs. And my intent is not to preach, but merely to explain my motivations and the lens through which I see this career.

Oh, and I agree that chasing a permanent ALV reduction that would apply to all categories is a lost cause for reasons you mention. I simply like to make sure people recognize how far away the company's offer really is from what I, myself, would like to see in the PWA. Management has shown their true colors, and our collective QOL is nowhere on their radar.

I can’t tell you how happy I am to have not spent that amount of time on a B scale or sitting side saddle reserve... oh wait. I spent the majority of 7 years on reserve in an RJ and now after almost 3 years being split between reserve and regular here I’m getting furloughed. You’re right, everyone else had it so much worse than any one else could possibly have it now

As you know, PCS runs in seniority order. So, it's not those "who want to work more" that will get an opportunity to pick up a trip.

This is a union job, everything is in seniority order. Those who want to work more submit a PCS request to pick up open time. Those who don't want to work more don't submit a PCS request. It is no different than the initial monthly bid runs, trips are awarded in seniority order.

In your entire Delta career, how many times has your category not had open time available via PCS? Even with half of the company on reserve, I have found open time in 14 of the categories on my AE bid preferences. Pretending like there won't be open time for pilots who want to work more is comical.

I had no idea.

And somehow i should be sorry for you? Hey man I am sorry you might be furloughed. Wasn’t my plan and I certainly don’t like it. But to compare stories and try to gin up sympathy will not help. It stinks. I was furloughed for almost 6 years. But it’s the way it happens. Reserve on an RJ? Sorry man. We all have our stories. Should I complain to you that I lived on an aircraft carrier? No I won’t. It was my path. If you are owed so much or looking for sympathy you are barking up the wrong tree.

Go get in a time machine. Those guys hired in 88 had it real good. But life isn’t fair and we get what we are dealt. Some complain. Sorry. I’ll hope you all get back quickly. And in the meantime I will continue to press our union not to give a penny so you have a good contract to return to. I hope it’s sooner vs later.

You're the one who started comparing sob stories. You do it on here constantly. I'm not sure if you're jealous of the younger guys, or bitter, or what.. but it gets old.

I'm a United pilot. Could you please explain what your ALV is?

Thanks

ALV is average line value. Each month our ALV goes up or down for the average line depending on program demand or forecast. We have a minimum line of 68 hours however for a line holder. Reserves get the ALV minus 2 hours not less than 72 for a guarantee. Typically you can not pick up any more flying at whatever the ALV is +15hrs. There is also a TLV which in essence levels the entire year in that the average for the year for the monthly ALV must meet a certain threshold as well...so as to prevent the company from making too many months low. I dont know what the TLV number is. Hope this helps.

Minimum line is 65. Reserve guarantee is ALV-2, but must always be between 72:00 & 80:00. PBS can build lines that are within 7:30 of ALV. ALV is different every month and is different fleet-to-fleet, but all domiciles on a given fleet will have the same ALV in a bid period, i.e. all A320 categories will have the same ALV for September, but that ALV May be different than the 737 ALV.

Thanks guys. Rumor has it our negotiating committee is considering lowering our MPG, minimum pay guarantee, in exchange for furlough mitigation/elimination. MPG is 73 for reserve and 70 for line holders. Nice to see you're MEC polled your group vs ours that intends to spring an agreement on us.

Best of luck to you all.

Here is how I spent my first 7 years at Delta, starting in 1991:
2 years 727 flight engineer, probation/new hire pay.
2 1/2 years furloughed.
2 1/2 years 727 engineer B scale

16 years into my career and after Delta emerges from bankruptcy (wiping out my pension accrual), I finally get to start saving for retirement, which is five years from now. A lower ALV isn't going to help me with that.

I would loved to have spent that 7 years flying an RJ, even on reserve. But no.... instead during my furlough there was no lowering of the 75 hour cap (similar to ALV), everybody green slipped all they wanted, and worst of all captains that were retiring at 60 simply down bid to my FE seat keeping me out. They were called ROPEs (retired old pilot engineers). Also no furlough non-rev or jumpseat privilages back then. I did have paid COBRA from my fellow pilots, thank you.

I'm not whining or complaining. This career has its ups and downs and I've learned that somebody always has had it better than me and somebody always has had it worse. Often you are simply dealt the hand that you play. No matter what happens, don't be bitter or resentful. That will eat you up. Just be grateful for what you do have, not unhappy at what you don't have.

Being furloughed is a lot of stress. Try to make the best of it. Your best years are still ahead of you, God willing.

Good post. Thanks for the backup. It seems there’s not enough old school on this board sometimes and I get beat up by the millennials.
The millennials don’t want to hear about the past but rather want to complain why they didn’t get... or why they are entitled to...

It's not just the millennials.

Gen X, thank you very much. I think we all know and appreciate the difficulties of the past. What irritates the living crap out of me, is the tone, or way it comes across sometimes. I’m not necessarily saying this is you. When guys are about to be out on the street, delivering pizzas to feed their family and keep from losing their home, to have some attitudes of, “oh yeah, well at least you had 6 months warning” kind of crap, “or when I was furloughed, it was so much worse...”. That doesn’t put food on the table, or alleviate the real stress the 2558, or now 1941 are dealing with. It’s condescending and dismissive. Like going into a funeral, and trying to out-do the misery with your own sob story. Both stories suck, but it’s just not the way to handle it. Have some self awareness if that’s you.

Now, when guys offer some perspective, like, “hey, brother, I know what you are going through. I’ve been through it too. Here’s some encouragement, and support. We got your back, and will fight for you where we can”. That comes across totally differently. UGBSM’s post came across the right way to me, FWIW.

Great post man. I’ve been both. I’ve also been on both sides. Print, social media and texts always can come across differently dependent on how it’s written and or read. Sarcasm doesn’t come across or does humor. Many times an innocent post gets greatly mis-interpreted.

Let's not forget how some got here in the first place....not flying an RJ, with an autopilot, FMS, flight attendant, work rules and a livable wage. How about some roasting in some ratty turboprop, flying 135 rules (34 in 7, 120/mo, legal to start, legal to finish) with none of the above and no lav to boot while making $12k a year.

If we "boomers" can claim any failure, it's not preparing these guys for the reality of this business, while reminding them all most all of us have been there, we know what it's like and we're "all in" to reduce the suck as much as possible.

You are so right that humor and sarcasm can easily be misunderstood in pithy, written posts. To that end. I hope I didn’t come across as dunking on you.

Not at all “moon river”.

Using the whole fist, doc? :D

Do you have any leads on those kind of flying jobs today? I’d rather make a little money doing something I enjoy, rather than make a little money doing something I hate.

Have you ever served time?

in a Turkish prison?

Wait, you mean my career isn’t going to be exactly what many a captain told me as little as 6 months ago? Where I’ll make money hand over first and make captain by year 3 and I’ll never have to worry all the things they went through? [emoji57]

I’m not surprised you missed the point. You gave a “just be happy you didn’t have to...” example that nobody asked for. Obviously, we’ve all had our ups and downs, but throwing past downs in others face doesn’t help. Your reaction to me replying in kind is telling.

I’m not asking or demanding squat, my family has Prepared for October.

Can anyone provide a cliffs note history, what was this B scale 727 FE in the mid 90s?

I’m not whining or complaining either. I’ve prepared. Tailhookah deemed it necessary to throw out a example of how bad it was for others in what appears to be his continued attempt to minimize anyone else’s misfortunes compared to his. I responded with my experience, and who would have guessed, tailhookah took offense and got upset. If my post came off as a complaint, it wasn’t intended as such. It’s not only people with 30 years of experience that realize $&@t happens.

Get a grip dude. You whine about the raw deal you get all the time. You were knee deep in what you were owed last year during retirement negotiations. I’m sorry you couldn’t handle my story that didn’t match your view of how us “entitled millennials” have had such a rosy career.

#240(this actually is a whine, just so it’s clear)

Yep. Tailhookah is constantly whining about how bad he's had it. Major chip on his shoulder. Probably best to just ignore guys like him honestly.

Haha. When you find out you are older than your FOs parents.....you know you are OLD!

FE....flight engineer

B- scale. Cost saving contract pay scale that was abt 50% of historic. Instead of pilots on property taking a pay cut it was imposed on those not hired yet. Ranged from 5 years to as long as 17 years. (Or Capt upgrade at AA)

Probation......at delta 1 year salary position. $1800/ month. .

Also no pass travel 1st 6 months.

And no JS. Ever.

No 401k.

found an old NWA Pay scale on google from 1992.
727 FE
YR2- $44/hr ($81 in 2020)
YR5- $58/hr ($107)
YR6(first year off b scale)- $86 ($158)

727 FO
YR2-$52 ($96)
YR5-$65 ($120)
YR6-$96 ($177)

Wise words.

Was the pay for 'Shuttle' or 'Song' different? I remember seeing all the various paint schemes and hearing about 'shuttle flying' and I wasn't sure.

shuttle came wth panam assets. Song even later. Shuttle new hires were paid IOW the pwa. No carve out.

express was lower though right? Was express just based out of MCO or were there other bases

the 737 mco express operation was a pwa carve out. Im dusting off brain cells but i believe the scale was about 25-30% less than mainline.

Express did have unique upsides for dom NB flying. As I found out wen i flew a 25 hr 4 day 5 leg express trip for my 732 OE. 😆