waldo135

Pretty sure if the days are black, there’s no way to swap trips that cover the exact same days. When you do yet available minus required, the trip you are picking up has to be MORE Negative than the one you are dropping. If the trips are on the same days, the math will be equal, therefore not allowed.

Herkflyr

Not true, except for the very specific carveiuts mentioned in the prior couple of posts to this one. I've done it many times, especially in the summer where you have mostly black days of reserve coverage plus lots of trips in open time.

After all, so long as the days are identical, the company is no better or worse off if you swap trips.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've swapped same day for same day many times, no matter the numbers.

sailingfun

Unless I am reading something wrong you should still get the swap. What is the denial reason given?

waldo135

Not so fast...the complete explanation of what I was talking about is in the Scheduling Reference Handbook p.38-40. “If the total coverage on the negative Day(s) to Be Added is worse than the coverage on the negative Day(s) to Be Dropped, then the swap or X-day move will be awarded.” There are examples on p.39.

Jaww

It’s the same day? I agree with Herk and I’m not sure what point you are trying to argue.

waldo135

I’ve been burned by this before. If the days are black, an even trade won’t work. You HAVE to take days that are ‘worse’. It is what it is, logic be damned.

Herkflyr

No that is incorrect. The swap with the pot software is completely automated, and virtually unchanged for 20 years. Any time you have same day for same day swaps, assuming that there are no violations and the swap was inputted correctly, the swap will be approved. About 2-3 times a year, this issue always comes up, someone has a complaint about getting hosed by the software or contractual language, vents about it, then after further investigation, there is always "more to the story." Possibilities are numerous, such as....

1. The trip the guy is trying to swap for is a "Q" trip, meaning not really an uncovered trip in open time, but rather a trip someone is trying to get rid of, but still assigned to another pilot.

2. Pilot misinterpreted the trip length (see miCrew incorrect trip length post from me earlier in this thread).

3. Pilot mis-typed his swap. Example, a pilot is trying to swap 4-day trip xxxx/05 for two separate two days, yyyy/05 and zzzz/07. Pilot should type as such in the template

DROPS xxxx 05 Jan

ADDS: yyyy 05 Jan zzzz 07 Jan


What I've seen is

DROPS xxxx 05 Jan

ADDS: yyyy 05 Jan
zzzz 07 Jan

The problem is with method two, zzzz/05 is your first choice, then zzzz/07 is your second. You are asking to swap a 4-day for a single 2-day, not two separate 2-days. It is important to realize that you type multiple trips on the same line, if that is your goal.


And of course, it is entirely possible that a swap that is granted might result in a flight time violation. Something as simple as swapping a low block time one-day (ATL-MCO-ATL turn for example) for a much higher time ATL-LAS-ATL turn that might result in some sort of block time limit exceedance.


Lots of possibilities, but assuming no violations, nor any "user error" in the process, same day for same day swaps should always be granted. If not the denial reason should state why.

waldo135

Did you even go read the 3 pages in the Scheduling Reference, or are you merely going off your previous experience? I even quoted it word-for-word.

Herkflyr

Both. For starters I was able to do a short notice same day for same day 2-day swap last month when we (ATL 320A) were (and still are) critically understaffed. I was surprised no one white slipped it, but no one did, and the swap was granted--exactly as I had hoped.

But reread the SRH, specifically the boldfaced second paragraph under the header The Basics, which states--in boldprint and italics no less--"Days on which A is equal to R do NOT require a day that is worse off with respect to reserve coverage. Note the Thanksgiving/Christmas exception below."

Page 38 in Aerodocs, page 35 on the actual bottom of the page.

In other words, same day for same day swaps will always be granted if legal, because the A and R numbers are unchanged when you swap trips.

Edit: the paragraph below what I posted already explains it even better. "Overlapping days in a SWP...are not considered for purposes of reserves coverage."

sailingfun

I have been denied a legal swap by the automated system so it can happen. In my case I was trying to swap the exact same 6 day trip I had to one day later and schedules for the following month were not yet out so it was impossible for me to be illegal. Coverage was double required. Crew scheds refused to see my logic on the issue so I handed it to the union. I got assignment pay for a 40 hour 6 day trip and strangely 2 payback days. Not a bad deal. Never did hear the exact issue but they claimed it was some type of coding error. On another occasion I was again denied a legal swap and it was caused by a error in how crew scheds built the rotation. Since the rotation had some type of violation built into it the system refused to award it. They fixed the issue and I was manually awarded the swap.