CBL / MBL overtime question
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 270
CBL / MBL overtime question
Sent this to ALPA scheduling as well, but I imagine they are fairly swamped right now. I’ve read the Negotiator Notepad on what some of the pay would be on Greenslips while on a CBL or MBL, but I want to confirm the pay of those and get information on Inverse Assignments.
For Greenslips I understand you have to hit the trigger for it to be a premium pay trip. Most of the examples have all sorts of stuff right at the trigger that muddies the water a bit. But if you do no other flying or training and get only my 35 hours on the CBL, but pick up a 3 day greenslip…do you make (35 + 15:45) = 50:45 on pay at the end of the month or do you get no additional hours at all until getting past the 35 hours and end up flying a greenslip for no additional pay unless you load up and get to the trigger? So you fly a 3 day greenslip with nothing else on the CBL...what do you get paid?
I couldn’t find anything about Inverse Assignment pay while on a MBL or CBL. If you're on a 25 hours MBL, with no additional training or vacation hours, and get put on a 3 day Inverse Assignment…. Are you paid 25 + (15:45 X 2) = 56:30 or is it something else?
Thanks for any input you might have, just trying to figure out the details.
For Greenslips I understand you have to hit the trigger for it to be a premium pay trip. Most of the examples have all sorts of stuff right at the trigger that muddies the water a bit. But if you do no other flying or training and get only my 35 hours on the CBL, but pick up a 3 day greenslip…do you make (35 + 15:45) = 50:45 on pay at the end of the month or do you get no additional hours at all until getting past the 35 hours and end up flying a greenslip for no additional pay unless you load up and get to the trigger? So you fly a 3 day greenslip with nothing else on the CBL...what do you get paid?
I couldn’t find anything about Inverse Assignment pay while on a MBL or CBL. If you're on a 25 hours MBL, with no additional training or vacation hours, and get put on a 3 day Inverse Assignment…. Are you paid 25 + (15:45 X 2) = 56:30 or is it something else?
Thanks for any input you might have, just trying to figure out the details.
#2
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,509
I think this is the key sentence in the negotiators notepad:
"The pilot will be paid the greater of the blank line guarantee or the accumulated pay and credit for the month."
So far in your GS example I'd say you worked for free unless you can get another trip via WS that puts your total credit over 35 hours. Basically if you're going to fly during a MBL/CBL line you'd really better commit or else you're not actually earning anything extra. Naturally on a GS the premium pay would never come into play unless you WS enough to hit the trigger.
I don't see IA's covered anywhere, but I'd think since there is no premium trigger that you'd earn 15:45 X2, which puts you over the CBL pay, so you would be earning some extra dough.
I'm curious to see what the scheduling committee has to say.
"The pilot will be paid the greater of the blank line guarantee or the accumulated pay and credit for the month."
So far in your GS example I'd say you worked for free unless you can get another trip via WS that puts your total credit over 35 hours. Basically if you're going to fly during a MBL/CBL line you'd really better commit or else you're not actually earning anything extra. Naturally on a GS the premium pay would never come into play unless you WS enough to hit the trigger.
I don't see IA's covered anywhere, but I'd think since there is no premium trigger that you'd earn 15:45 X2, which puts you over the CBL pay, so you would be earning some extra dough.
I'm curious to see what the scheduling committee has to say.
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
Sent this to ALPA scheduling as well, but I imagine they are fairly swamped right now. I’ve read the Negotiator Notepad on what some of the pay would be on Greenslips while on a CBL or MBL, but I want to confirm the pay of those and get information on Inverse Assignments.
For Greenslips I understand you have to hit the trigger for it to be a premium pay trip. Most of the examples have all sorts of stuff right at the trigger that muddies the water a bit. But if you do no other flying or training and get only my 35 hours on the CBL, but pick up a 3 day greenslip…do you make (35 + 15:45) = 50:45 on pay at the end of the month or do you get no additional hours at all until getting past the 35 hours and end up flying a greenslip for no additional pay unless you load up and get to the trigger? So you fly a 3 day greenslip with nothing else on the CBL...what do you get paid?
I couldn’t find anything about Inverse Assignment pay while on a MBL or CBL. If you're on a 25 hours MBL, with no additional training or vacation hours, and get put on a 3 day Inverse Assignment…. Are you paid 25 + (15:45 X 2) = 56:30 or is it something else?
Thanks for any input you might have, just trying to figure out the details.
For Greenslips I understand you have to hit the trigger for it to be a premium pay trip. Most of the examples have all sorts of stuff right at the trigger that muddies the water a bit. But if you do no other flying or training and get only my 35 hours on the CBL, but pick up a 3 day greenslip…do you make (35 + 15:45) = 50:45 on pay at the end of the month or do you get no additional hours at all until getting past the 35 hours and end up flying a greenslip for no additional pay unless you load up and get to the trigger? So you fly a 3 day greenslip with nothing else on the CBL...what do you get paid?
I couldn’t find anything about Inverse Assignment pay while on a MBL or CBL. If you're on a 25 hours MBL, with no additional training or vacation hours, and get put on a 3 day Inverse Assignment…. Are you paid 25 + (15:45 X 2) = 56:30 or is it something else?
Thanks for any input you might have, just trying to figure out the details.
In contrast, an Inverse Assignment is pure double pay with a CBL/MBL because there is no trigger. So 25 MBL + 26:15 vacation + a four day IA 42 (21 pay time and 21 assign pay) = 93:15
In your example, yes, you would get 56:30 with an IA.
#4
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,509
There is a disagreement between APLA and Delta on whether a GS is in addition to the the 25/35 hours or overlays it. The scheduling committee believes it is in addition to those hours but you still have to hit the GS trigger to get double pay.
In contrast, an Inverse Assignment is pure double pay with a CBL/MBL because there is no trigger. So 25 MBL + 26:15 vacation + a four day IA 42 (21 pay time and 21 assign pay) = 93:15
In your example, yes, you would get 56:30 with an IA.
In contrast, an Inverse Assignment is pure double pay with a CBL/MBL because there is no trigger. So 25 MBL + 26:15 vacation + a four day IA 42 (21 pay time and 21 assign pay) = 93:15
In your example, yes, you would get 56:30 with an IA.
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
Here are their two examples:
“- If a pilot is awarded a GS for a two-day trip worth 11:00 and the premium pay trigger is 73:15 or less, they will receive 95:15 of compensation for the bid period (35:00 guarantee + 26:15 vacation + 12:00 carry-in + 22:00 GS pay)
- If a pilot is awarded a GS for a two-day trip worth 11:00 and the premium pay trigger is greater than 73:15, they will receive 73:15 of pay for the bid period (35:00 guarantee + 26:15 vacation +12:00 carry-in); because the pilot has not reached the premium pay trigger, the GS award will trigger single pay and credit, offset against their line guarantee.”
ALPA says the company approved the comm piece so the examples speak for themselves. To me the premium pay trigger “greater than” or “less” could have been a little more clear ... like you have hit the trigger and you are above 73:15 or if not you are below 73:15. The trigger itself is always in flux each month so maybe it is greater than or less than 73:15. Just confusing ... for me ... and I guess some others. But I’ll let the powers that be hash it out. I’d rather not wait years to find out.
I just waited for an IA to be sure.
#6
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,509
It was explained in Scheduling Alert 20-24, November 19, 2020.
Here are their two examples:
“- If a pilot is awarded a GS for a two-day trip worth 11:00 and the premium pay trigger is 73:15 or less, they will receive 95:15 of compensation for the bid period (35:00 guarantee + 26:15 vacation + 12:00 carry-in + 22:00 GS pay)
- If a pilot is awarded a GS for a two-day trip worth 11:00 and the premium pay trigger is greater than 73:15, they will receive 73:15 of pay for the bid period (35:00 guarantee + 26:15 vacation +12:00 carry-in); because the pilot has not reached the premium pay trigger, the GS award will trigger single pay and credit, offset against their line guarantee.”
ALPA says the company approved the comm piece so the examples speak for themselves. To me the premium pay trigger “greater than” or “less” could have been a little more clear ... like you have hit the trigger and you are above 73:15 or if not you are below 73:15. The trigger itself is always in flux each month so maybe it is greater than or less than 73:15. Just confusing ... for me ... and I guess some others. But I’ll let the powers that be hash it out. I’d rather not wait years to find out.
I just waited for an IA to be sure.
Here are their two examples:
“- If a pilot is awarded a GS for a two-day trip worth 11:00 and the premium pay trigger is 73:15 or less, they will receive 95:15 of compensation for the bid period (35:00 guarantee + 26:15 vacation + 12:00 carry-in + 22:00 GS pay)
- If a pilot is awarded a GS for a two-day trip worth 11:00 and the premium pay trigger is greater than 73:15, they will receive 73:15 of pay for the bid period (35:00 guarantee + 26:15 vacation +12:00 carry-in); because the pilot has not reached the premium pay trigger, the GS award will trigger single pay and credit, offset against their line guarantee.”
ALPA says the company approved the comm piece so the examples speak for themselves. To me the premium pay trigger “greater than” or “less” could have been a little more clear ... like you have hit the trigger and you are above 73:15 or if not you are below 73:15. The trigger itself is always in flux each month so maybe it is greater than or less than 73:15. Just confusing ... for me ... and I guess some others. But I’ll let the powers that be hash it out. I’d rather not wait years to find out.
I just waited for an IA to be sure.
If that holds true for an IA, then the trigger doesn't matter so I'd think you'd get both the single pay and premium pay applied towards your line guarantee. Thus if you are on a CBL (25 hours) you'd need to at least do a 3-day IA to make any extra money. A 1 or 2 day IA won't net you anything unless you WS/GS/IA another trip during the bid period.
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
That's interesting, because according to those examples you can work a GS for free. The 73:15 is not the trigger, rather it comes from the example credit: 35 + 26:15 + 12 = 73:15, so if that's all you do then that's all you get paid. Example #2 shows where the GS trigger is higher than what the pilot has earned that month (73:15) thus the GS pays no money and is only credited towards their line guarantee. So according to that comm piece a GS won't pay ANYTHING extra if it's the only thing you do that month and you have no credit boosters (carry in trip, vaca, etc.). So to the OP's original question, on example 1 you earn no money whatsoever for the GS. It will only act as a WS (single pay) towards your line guarantee thus you must WS or GS another trip during the bid period that gets you over your MBL/CBL guarantee if you want that trip to actually count towards earning extra money over guarantee.
If that holds true for an IA, then the trigger doesn't matter so I'd think you'd get both the single pay and premium pay applied towards your line guarantee. Thus if you are on a CBL (25 hours) you'd need to at least do a 3-day IA to make any extra money. A 1 or 2 day IA won't net you anything unless you WS/GS/IA another trip during the bid period.
Also, a CBL is 35 hours.
#8
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,509
Yes that was a typo on my part.
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
The key is the single pay goes towards your line guarantee, not in addition to it. You'd still have to work enough days to earn above the 35 hours for the GS to mean absolutely anything pay-wise, and even then it's effectively just like a WS unless you can get above the trigger. So again, if the only thing you do all month is a GS, you just worked for free. Just for an example. if you're on a 35 hour CBL, with no vacation, training, or carry-in credit, and the only thing you fly is a 2-day GS, then you still only get paid 35 hours.
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 270
Thanks for the info. I’ll standby to hear from DALPA and let you know the answer when I get it. My gut feeling is this is another “we didn’t think they’d do that” moment when it comes to Greenslips being single pay or just credit toward the 35 hours when below the trigger. I’d also like to see the Inverse Assignment stuff in black and white plain English as well.
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