Originally Posted by crazyjaydawg

I get what you're saying, but I think the time has come for that to be addressed. I don't think anyone needs to lose their job, instead I think the ALPA MAC can communicate with the company to see their intentions in this situation and/or get the DOJ involved depending on a response.

My understanding is that the heartburn from the company with concurrent duty was that there were zoomies sitting reserve with DAL and also sitting alert with their squadron; when scheduling called, the aforementioned pilot would then drop mil leave. That is most definitely abuse and something that a civilian equivalent can't do.

In this case, if Delta is allowing someone to do their side job while awaiting training, then there is no reason why a mil guy can't also do the mil thing until training. BS said in one of his townhalls that affected pilots will be given 30 days notice prior to training, so if you drop mil orders at the 30 days out, then I don't see the problem. Delta is trying to bully MIL guys just to save a few dollars that Delta was given for free. I know it comes more from a planning stand point; it must really suck for them not being able to plan more than 30 days out .

Finally, USSERA specifically states that a commander's letter can count as proof of duty. You don't have to provide orders to drop mil leave.

Originally Posted by jaxsurf

Still, I’m not sure how it violates USERRA that you’re not being paid by the employer that you’re on a leave from. The civ guys got lucky this time, the mil guys did not. And I’m not hating on the mil guys, I’m also a reservist. I just don’t see how this is so horrible outside of Delta being sh*tty about the conversion timing.

I’m all about double dipping when there’s a leg to stand on, but that leg just went away, and not illegally. Just unfortunate timing-ly.

(Because management can’t be trusted, let us never forget that )

Originally Posted by crazyjaydawg

Nothing that the company has done here violates USERRA. I think it’s just more shady that the company is trying to get guys to go on MLOA before they have to.

The Company is very strongly suggesting that those on orders go on MLOA as soon as possible, but nothing in the FOM, PWA or LOA 20-04 supersedes the fact that a member doesn’t have to start MLOA until they actually need to miss work.

In reality USERRA states that notice must be given prior to missing work (and that’s not always required) but it can be given in any formal or informal way.

It’s during the return to work that proof of service must be given. I don’t see any reason why a Mil guy can’t just wait to go on MLOA until they are schedule for training.

USERRA (part 117 ironically enough) specifically states that missing work or a requirement to come to work shall be treated the same regardless of military affiliation. And as far as I can tell, a military member isn’t missing work until training.

Originally Posted by jaxsurf

So, even better. If nobody is actually on MLOA right now, then they should still be getting paid by the company. Who told the mil guys that they have to go on MLOA immediately? I didn’t see that written anywhere (but I don’t pay much attention, so could totally be the case).

If you’re not required to be on MLOA then who cares what the company says. If they schedule training you can’t make, drop MLOA. If you’re already on MLOA, then it doesn’t even matter.

Originally Posted by jaxsurf

So, even better. If nobody is actually on MLOA right now, then they should still be getting paid by the company. Who told the mil guys that they have to go on MLOA immediately? I didn’t see that written anywhere (but I don’t pay much attention, so could totally be the case). All I saw was that you have to go on MLOA if you don’t bid. Civ guys also gotta go on PLOA if they don’t bid.

If you’re not required to be on MLOA then who cares what the company says. If they schedule training you can’t make, drop MLOA. If you’re already on MLOA, then it doesn’t even matter.

Originally Posted by crazyjaydawg

Yes that’s the point I’m making. The company via LOA 20-04 states that a pilot has 15 days during the proffer window to start MLOA. They don’t speak to that “gray area” between accepting a proffer and awaiting training.

I think in CXT’s situation, the proffer was accepted, and training was scheduled for the future, but CXT had remained an “affected pilot” and was 100 percent allowed to participate in outside employment.

The heartburn comes from the sudden conversion to “active pilot” today out of the blue and the FOM requirement that military pilots can’t perform “concurrent duty”. So by the company’s standards, those converted today are violating the FOM if they didn’t submit mil leave today.

My assertion is that they can’t punish that pilot for not submitting MLOA immediately and in fact it’s not required to start MLOA until you actually miss work.

Originally Posted by BigHitterLlama

MAC put out that as of the date of conversion (today) that according to the company all people working their Mil job should be on MLOA. Because the company only cares about us being paid by both not actually working for both. From what I’ve heard.

Originally Posted by jaxsurf

Ah, gotcha. Makes sense now. Yeah, that kinda sucks. Still, they’re on AD orders getting paid, so... meh.

Don't submit MLOA until they assign you training (if you can’t make it).

Originally Posted by jaxsurf

Did you mean MEC? I’m not sure who/what MAC is. Regardless, if people believe that to be a violation of USERRA laws, find the relevant passages and forward them to the company/whoever.

Originally Posted by crazyjaydawg

I guess that’s all I’m saying too. I don’t think any mil guy thinks they should get double pay if they miss training...I certainly don’t agree with that.

On the other hand, if a pilot is on AD and training isn’t scheduled for months, then there’s no legal requirement to be on MLOA, the company is just trying to get pilots to voluntarily do it.

I don’t see why anyone should have issue with a fellow pilot getting paid. Delta is getting a lot of government support (that can be debated vigorously, idc) but it’s not like active pilots are getting paid less because affected pilots are still getting paid.

Originally Posted by crazyjaydawg

The MAC is the ALPA military affairs committee.

They can provide advice and act as a conduit with the company regarding military stuff, but legally they don’t have much pull because USERRA supersedes the PWA (generally speaking).

The company isn’t violating USERRA unless they start to punish pilots for being on AD while awaiting training.

That’s why it’s important that return to work documentation is very specific.