USERRA, Delta and the ESGR
03-15-2021, 11:11 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 4,416
Originally Posted by p3flteng
you are comparing apples to oranges, a civilian guy is not the same.
Originally Posted by p3flteng
Did that guy break the law? Although in very poor taste, the F18 guy was actually serving a role in the defense of this country, and whether he did it voluntarily or not, is irrelevant. The country needs Reserve members to/for our nations security, and they are protected under law. Period.
I have no idea of this particular story is correct but I personally know someone who did this at another airline; no deployment, just didn’t think he should have to commute or be junior.
Originally Posted by p3flteng
Would you prefer that the reserve slot goes infilled, and then they actually put another AD guy on back to back deployment/ orders? (Take a look at active duty retention rates and tell me that’s a great idea) Or worse, a slot is infilled and our war fighting capability Is degraded?
Originally Posted by p3flteng
Look, there is a reason that USERRA was written into law in the first place, and it’s because people couldn’t serve their country and be employed by a civilian with out penalties. Do you think the law was written for the member?
Originally Posted by p3flteng
=12ptjust say thank you and move on.
I grew up in a military reserve family, I’ve been around it my whole life and I’ve seen a lot. As a general rule of thumb I have great respect for those that serve. but the fact that those that abuse the system are protected and people here are justifying the abuse is really sad.
im disappointed DL has taken the attitude they have to mil service, but given some of the responses I’ve seen on here, I can understand why they have those policies.
03-15-2021, 11:28 AM
#22
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: 3+ hour sit in the ATL
Posts: 1,982
Originally Posted by Gone Flying
It is the same, you did not fulfill your obligations to DL because of outside employment. Doesn’t really matter what your employment is.
If this story was correct, this guy sounds like a D-bag. The attitude of “I shouldn’t have to sit reserve or be junior because____” is not one to defend. It would be a different story if his unit was deploying and he just found out and that is why he won’t be jr, but it sounds like he took the job with every intention of saying “I don’t feel like the rules should apply to me so I’m not gonna be junior”.
I have no idea of this particular story is correct but I personally know someone who did this at another airline; no deployment, just didn’t think he should have to commute or be junior.
the military is the largest budget item in the US, I’m still chuckling at the thought of our “degraded war fighting capability” because a couple guys left. it’s not Delta’s responsibility to make sure the military has enough pilots. And if that pilot is working for the Military, Delta should not be forced to pay them (401k)
i certainly don’t think it was written so people did not have to be junior and get $10,00-$30,000+in 401k while not working for their employer. And I think that, while legal, that should certainly be considered abuse. it was written because the military wanted to have its cake and eat it too. They know that by making it onerous for employers, they create benefits for TRs/Guardsmen that make retention easier. They know if they make a civilian employer subsidize the pay of a military member on orders they will get volunteers, they know if they require the “escalator” that many servicemen will get their civilian job then come back on orders to avoid the sucky part of the job (this one mostly applies to union positions with seniority) I understand the military has a mission, but the burden of completing that mission should fall on the military, not Delta.
is this your attitude to management bonuses and stock buybacks? Because by the same logic, “it’s legal, don’t question it and say thank you for employing me and move on” would be your response.
I grew up in a military reserve family, I’ve been around it my whole life and I’ve seen a lot. As a general rule of thumb I have great respect for those that serve. but the fact that those that abuse the system are protected and people here are justifying the abuse is really sad.
im disappointed DL has taken the attitude they have to mil service, but given some of the responses I’ve seen on here, I can understand why they have those policies.
If this story was correct, this guy sounds like a D-bag. The attitude of “I shouldn’t have to sit reserve or be junior because____” is not one to defend. It would be a different story if his unit was deploying and he just found out and that is why he won’t be jr, but it sounds like he took the job with every intention of saying “I don’t feel like the rules should apply to me so I’m not gonna be junior”.
I have no idea of this particular story is correct but I personally know someone who did this at another airline; no deployment, just didn’t think he should have to commute or be junior.
the military is the largest budget item in the US, I’m still chuckling at the thought of our “degraded war fighting capability” because a couple guys left. it’s not Delta’s responsibility to make sure the military has enough pilots. And if that pilot is working for the Military, Delta should not be forced to pay them (401k)
i certainly don’t think it was written so people did not have to be junior and get $10,00-$30,000+in 401k while not working for their employer. And I think that, while legal, that should certainly be considered abuse. it was written because the military wanted to have its cake and eat it too. They know that by making it onerous for employers, they create benefits for TRs/Guardsmen that make retention easier. They know if they make a civilian employer subsidize the pay of a military member on orders they will get volunteers, they know if they require the “escalator” that many servicemen will get their civilian job then come back on orders to avoid the sucky part of the job (this one mostly applies to union positions with seniority) I understand the military has a mission, but the burden of completing that mission should fall on the military, not Delta.
is this your attitude to management bonuses and stock buybacks? Because by the same logic, “it’s legal, don’t question it and say thank you for employing me and move on” would be your response.
I grew up in a military reserve family, I’ve been around it my whole life and I’ve seen a lot. As a general rule of thumb I have great respect for those that serve. but the fact that those that abuse the system are protected and people here are justifying the abuse is really sad.
im disappointed DL has taken the attitude they have to mil service, but given some of the responses I’ve seen on here, I can understand why they have those policies.
Thank you for telling how you feelz about it. Your feelz about it doesn't standup to law.
All the examples here - absolutely legal. No one cares if you personally don't like it or not. The law is cut and dry on the issue. Don't like it, then change it. Good luck with that!!!
BTW it doesn't concern you in what capacity a member serves. That is the command's responsibility, not yours or XYZ airlines'.
My answer to your type, BCAN and that Retired Guy when you'd go Blue Falconing the reservist in my command: "They are sitting alert. Bye."
03-15-2021, 12:00 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 4,416
Originally Posted by notEnuf
We could solve this with real year 1 pay and full employee compensation on day 1 of training to include hotel expenses. (Just sayn' 
)
BTW that helps civies too.
)BTW that helps civies too.
03-15-2021, 12:18 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by Drum
USERRA LAW is pretty black and white.
Thank you for telling how you feelz about it. Your feelz about it doesn't standup to law.
All the examples here - absolutely legal. No one cares if you personally don't like it or not. The law is cut and dry on the issue. Don't like it, then change it. Good luck with that!!!
BTW it doesn't concern you in what capacity a member serves. That is the command's responsibility, not yours or XYZ airlines'.
My answer to your type, BCAN and that Retired Guy when you'd go Blue Falconing the reservist in my command: "They are sitting alert. Bye."
Thank you for telling how you feelz about it. Your feelz about it doesn't standup to law.
All the examples here - absolutely legal. No one cares if you personally don't like it or not. The law is cut and dry on the issue. Don't like it, then change it. Good luck with that!!!
BTW it doesn't concern you in what capacity a member serves. That is the command's responsibility, not yours or XYZ airlines'.
My answer to your type, BCAN and that Retired Guy when you'd go Blue Falconing the reservist in my command: "They are sitting alert. Bye."
bye
03-15-2021, 12:26 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by CX500T
For a data point, for the pre 9/11 guys.
I joined in 97. (Enlisted reservist)
Commissioned in 01.
Active 01-2012
Reservist again 2012-now
I'm on my 15th deployment over 90 days.
10th that's over 210 days. (Have been gone up to 14 months straight at one point)
If this deployment ends as scheduled I will have done 111 months deployed in 24.5 years.
9-1/4 YEARS
That's like 37% of my time in the military is deployment. I didn't even attempt to add training dets, short underway, etc. Considering I've been a reservist for about half of the time, thats a ton of deployments.
When I was active duty I was spending well over half my time deployed.
And I was pretty much fleet average.
Squadron deployment. Then an IA, then as soon as you get back from that, squadrons deploying again.
Do another IA. Go to shortened shore tour. Back to a fleet squadron. 7 month cruse becomes a 9 month then get surged.
Go to reserves, 330 day to Afghanistan. After that keep on either getting tapped at min dwell for something that sucks, or volunteer early and waive dwell and get something that's less sucky.
The reserves have been ridden hard and put away wet going on 20 years now.
I just hit the burnout / IDGAF point this week because of all the covid insanity on top of standard deployment stuff.
3 star staff counting down the days until im forced out.
I'm honestly hoping they don't grant continuation or promote me at this point.
Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
I joined in 97. (Enlisted reservist)
Commissioned in 01.
Active 01-2012
Reservist again 2012-now
I'm on my 15th deployment over 90 days.
10th that's over 210 days. (Have been gone up to 14 months straight at one point)
If this deployment ends as scheduled I will have done 111 months deployed in 24.5 years.
9-1/4 YEARS
That's like 37% of my time in the military is deployment. I didn't even attempt to add training dets, short underway, etc. Considering I've been a reservist for about half of the time, thats a ton of deployments.
When I was active duty I was spending well over half my time deployed.
And I was pretty much fleet average.
Squadron deployment. Then an IA, then as soon as you get back from that, squadrons deploying again.
Do another IA. Go to shortened shore tour. Back to a fleet squadron. 7 month cruse becomes a 9 month then get surged.
Go to reserves, 330 day to Afghanistan. After that keep on either getting tapped at min dwell for something that sucks, or volunteer early and waive dwell and get something that's less sucky.
The reserves have been ridden hard and put away wet going on 20 years now.
I just hit the burnout / IDGAF point this week because of all the covid insanity on top of standard deployment stuff.
3 star staff counting down the days until im forced out.
I'm honestly hoping they don't grant continuation or promote me at this point.
Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
Nobody is talking about guys on legit deployments or getting his job done at his unit. Others have discussed long term abuse but some often not even in a pay billet will strategically drop days on reserve or trips to enhance days off and greenslips. It was not uncommon in a category I was in where the shortest trip was 3 days to see a small minority bid reserve lines with 5 days on call and drop a mil day in the middle of every reserve block. Quite strangely however they were available on every single off day for greenslips.
03-15-2021, 12:29 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,027
Originally Posted by Gone Flying
dont think this would help much, AA and UA both offer hotels and full pay on day 1, yet still have these issues (or whatever you wanna call it). I do find it interesting that AA does not put $$$ in your 401(k) on year 1 unless you have at least 1 year at an AAG regional. I wonder if USERRA’s policy on retirement contributions affects this.
03-15-2021, 12:47 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by Retired Guy
I signed up to this forum just to comment on these USERRA posts.
For several years now, it has been apparent to me there is abuse of the USERRA laws that I find abhorrent. There are a number of pilots getting hired at Delta and once they receive their seniority number - they are dropping orders and heading off to fly a desk at Eglin or some other cushy post. They go away for a couple of years, collect profit sharing on "deemed earnings", accrue seniority - and come back to a potential Captain slot (now "saved" for them courtesy of some LOA or similar). They get trained (some requiring solo only simulator periods and a lot of additional IOE - because they haven't flown a real airplane in years). And when they return to the line, they bump some other pilot down (who has been flying all this time).
A few years ago Delta was having to hire 2.5 military pilots to get 1 full time equivalent.
So I am not at all sympathetic to the complaints about Delta and their interpretation of the USERRA rules.
And yes, I served in the USAFR. Back in my day, you hired on when you were done with your active duty military service. So save me the "we are defending the Country" mantra. 90% of my new hire class served too.
For several years now, it has been apparent to me there is abuse of the USERRA laws that I find abhorrent. There are a number of pilots getting hired at Delta and once they receive their seniority number - they are dropping orders and heading off to fly a desk at Eglin or some other cushy post. They go away for a couple of years, collect profit sharing on "deemed earnings", accrue seniority - and come back to a potential Captain slot (now "saved" for them courtesy of some LOA or similar). They get trained (some requiring solo only simulator periods and a lot of additional IOE - because they haven't flown a real airplane in years). And when they return to the line, they bump some other pilot down (who has been flying all this time).
A few years ago Delta was having to hire 2.5 military pilots to get 1 full time equivalent.
So I am not at all sympathetic to the complaints about Delta and their interpretation of the USERRA rules.
And yes, I served in the USAFR. Back in my day, you hired on when you were done with your active duty military service. So save me the "we are defending the Country" mantra. 90% of my new hire class served too.
highlighted your problem, sir.
03-15-2021, 12:53 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 4,416
Sorry for the thread drift
Originally Posted by notEnuf
Training pay or full pay on day1 for UA and AA? Should be reserve guarantee at 97% of second year pay plus training pay expenses paid IMHO.
Delta is different and does not give new hires hotels or full pay, we are the only one of the big 4 to do this. I think the only other pax carrier that does not offer hotels is Frotier, but at least you get full pay day 1 there.
EDIT: if we want to continue down this rabbit hole, let’s do it in another thread
03-15-2021, 12:59 PM
#30
New Hire
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by GucciBoy
I’m shocked that you have a friend in the CPO. Can we go back to last week when you weren’t on this forum please?
But you win. I’m done posting since one obviously has to drink whatever it is you’re serving.
