Nantonaku

How long is it going to take to get the language worked out? Can anyone comment on Bucking's comment that right now in total we are at 3:1 in favor of Delta for the global wide body scope ratio? That doesn't sound right to me but I guess I have no clue. From past Union publications it doesn't sound right but I don't remember them posting a statistic like that.

Bucking Bar

1 R. ( the Virgin Atlantic JV) gives us no less than a 2/3 slice of the pie. We are twice Virgin’s share, so if they get one, we should get two. In practice we have been getting around 74% which is very close to 3/4 of the pie. Because this is a global wide body balance, it encompasses more wide body block hours than the other JV agreements.

WARNING …. what follows is conjecture and guesses not supported by data, yet….

Trying to think of reasons the smart folks all around me tell me this is a good deal. These are reasons they have not stated, it if I were asked to write the “pro” this is where I would look:

• Since this is a balance and Virgin never grew to push the ratio in 1 R., it may be that adding the other JV partners flying creates a big enough pool that it drives a higher number on our end.
• Management’s business model has superseded the Virgin arrangement and the economic measures used don’t make sense to management anymore, so they become much harder for us to enforce.
• Simplicity
• Somehow this captures “and beyond” flying where DL code passengers fly (for example) AM-LATAM and never touch a real DL jet. West jet is likely to feed a lot of traffic into southern routes and Asia without touching our airplanes,

I have asked the MEC Admin through our Reps to make the case for this change in data.

Planetrain

Question 1: Do we have TA language yet? No.
How would anyone know how they handled 1.R in the big scheme of things? Unless you were a negotiator, you wouldn’t know this answer and are just speculating the AIP bullet point was the entire agreement. We don’t know.

1.R for background is the part of scope dealing with Virgin Atlantic. It has a narrow geographical scope, but it does favor DL on about a 2:1 ratio in the balance. (This is one of the parts of scope where DL is actually ahead of compliance from the minimum) If anyone thinks that North America to UK will be a huge growth space, totally dwarfing what we have with AF/KLM, it would be a part I would keep an eye on. (Personally I’m not hugely concerned about this being an issue with slot constrained UK airports. VA has like 35 jets, what is our realistic expectation of growth on this one?)

Before I pass any judgement, I would like to see how many ASMs we fly vs the rest of all the JVs combined. That would be an interesting comparison.

Bar, where are you seeing current 72-74% of all JVs’ traffic being in DL’s favor? Hadn’t seen that data.

Im also withholding judgement and speculation until we have language. We don’t have any language yet.

Edit: I see Bar was typing the same time as I was. 72-74% is specifically about 1R, not all the JVs

Bucking Bar

good post. 1 R. Is a Global Widebody balance. …. It has no geographical requirement other than the required LHR ops…..In fact, do you think it fair to basically call the AIP just an enlarged 1 R. with a lower ratio (balance) based on the sum of all JV’s?

Took the I R. % from the most recent Scope Compliance presentation.

From what I understand this is TA’d. My GUESS is that we are not getting a contract without this part done.

Resistance is probably futile and unwise.

Planetrain

1R1 is LHR
1R2 is global

If 1R2 stays, all it does is cap Virgin Atlantic from growing unless we grow 2:1, and makes VA shrink if our global total widebody flying shrinks. (And realistically, is the arbitrator going to make them shrink or just cut us another check to split amongst 14,000 pilots?)

If 1R2 is dissolved for a something else, and that something else is better in totality than what we have now, I don’t care if 1R2 is gone. Bar I appreciate you looking for holes, but I think it’s just too early to waste too many brain cells on this. Can we re-visit in 2 months? It is my understanding the language is not written yet.

Giordano Bruno

Bucking Bar was Donatelli's scope lackey. He is a TA1 "good ol' boy," ready to blindly follow his political marching orders.

He knows the difference between 1R1 and 1R2 perfectly well.

Why he's sandbagging and obfuscating is anyone's guess, but one thing is sure: it's a purely political play, and not remotely motivated by pilot advocacy.

First Break

Not only that, but he also knows 1R has been another instance of “we didn’t think they’d do that”. It measures DL against all potential Virgin growth, global for global. But before the ink was dry, Virgin began shifting its existing aircraft from points beyond the UK and pointed them all back at the USA to do flying that could have just as easily been Delta’s. Viola, no “growth” but VA has enjoyed a windfall of US-UK flying ever since. The touted 2-for1 actually amounted to bupkis for Delta pilots, just like most of the agreements that came from the Moakaholic crew. Nothing like propping up a failing foreign partner that we own 49% of by voluntarily giving them the keys to the kingdom.

Why anyone would defend 1R (which is widely viewed as the poster child for “we didn’t think they’d do that” by anyone who’s been paying attention for the last decade) is beyond me. Misguided team pride is the only obvious answer. I can remember the C2012 large RJ for 717 scheme that was supposed to result in an immediate unprecedented hiring boom at Delta, sold at the time as a windfall of career progression for Delta pilots. Just sign 4/8/3/3 as fast as possible, and don’t dare ask any questions. Not to mention how it completely sold the industry down the road and APA was forced in BK court to allow large RJs for the first time in their history. Remind me again when that deal was signed, and when we hired the first new hire…? Pro tip, it was almost 2 years later.

It’s convoluted gerrymandered agreements such as 1R and the large RJ for 717 “trade” that underscore the need for wholesale change.

Who knows if the MEC actually learned from these sorts of things in the proposed agreement, but for the good of our careers I sure hope they did.

Iceberg

Resistance will happen unless the language is good for us. No one requires a new contract so badly they’ll accept a bad one. If this eventual TA is subpar then Ed can have it back to pad his pillow. Maybe then he’ll sleep alright.

Bucking Bar

This whole post ignores the fact that 1 R. 1. required an increase in DL flying to Heathrow and Delta acquired more Heathrow slots to be in compliance.

In 2008 DCI had more domestic block and more domestic departures than mainline. C12 changed that in favor of mainline and DCI has been getting systematically dismantled since. Still, I agree with your points about large RJ's and voted NO to C12.

Bucking Bar

That was the job. The Reps direct the MEC Chairman, the MEC Chair direct the Admin.

The admin shouldn't be trying to undermine their MEC Chairman or playing politics with the Reps. Committee folks should not be politicians.

If there eventually becomes a difference of opinion that is too great, then the admin member should train a replacement and quit. I quit. Unfortunately, we then had three scope Chairmen quit in rapid succession. The fourth just handed off the job to his Vice-Chairman.

Most have not bothered to communicate to people like you. I figure any Delta pilot is deserving of respect.