AA Pilots BOD rejects AIP
 

APA Rejects AIP. Surprised I haven't seen this on our threads yet. 15-5. Combined with 94% voting NO to UA's Tumi TA, and our 99% Strike Vote, it seems we are collectively standing up for ourselves. If we can stand together, we can all achieve a contract we can be proud of.

It's not been a good 3 days for Airline/Air Line management.

I disagree. They're still getting labor at a discount.

And they will continue to, unless you (and everyone) negotiates 100% retro.
(yes, this is the hill I will die on)

That they are….for now

Retro for retired and deceased also. That way the soon to retire don’t vote yes just to get theirs.

Amen, at SWA we got retro for retired, deceased and even for those that left to other carriers I believe. Basically for anyone on the seniority list on the amenable date.

So proud of DAL, AA (BOD), & UAL pilots. Seriously. Very, VERY nicely done. I hope we at Corndog Airlines can do our part to uphold and further the profession. We’re up against one traitor prick of a lead negotiator on the Kompany’s side.

As it should be.

Our time has arrived!

Salute, respect and admiration to our brothers and sisters at AA, UA and especially DL. As whack says, we at corndog will aspire to stand with you and no, new guys like myself are not yes. We are hard no as many of us are making less now than at our regional jobs now. Together we are all stronger. Anything less than life changing in ALL contract areas is not only NO but a…….
cheers

Ok, I'm ignorant. What on earth is corndog??

SWA. Their brown paint jobs lol.

Love it! I've never heard that one before.

it’s actually a reference to their new paint and its similarity to the corporate colors of the chain Hotdog-On-A-Stick



https://i.ibb.co/fQCTSpB/6-E375-E5-E...C1-EBF3573.jpg

My taxi speed is insane. Nobody taxis faster than me. I use only ground speed in this calculation. Not gusts from b757 jet blast. Taxiing with tegridy.

Hahaha. I’ll never forget one of your pilots (DAL) getting on my case in 2009 about my taxi speed on the Victor loop in the Ahhh Teeee Elllll.

On North Ground:

”Really Citrus…10 knots?!”

So … your point is? Rush a contract and take lower than we deserve?

Absolutely not. But they are in fact getting our labor at a huge discount. Don't think they're overly upset it got voted down.

As it has been mentioned previously, it's only a discount if we're stupid enough to agree to anything without retro. That is also a hill I'm willing to die on. I've left from one carrier that spent over a decade working on reaching a TA, to another going on over 3 years past amendable, this needs to be accounted for.

Did you get full retro? Can anyone cite an instance where full retro was achieved 3 years plus beyond the amendable date? How about 4 years? If not, there has to be a better reason than those pilot groups didn’t want it bad enough.

I don’t prescribe one way or another without the overall context of an agreement to look at. We could have full retro with small increases in the outlying years or less retro and more later. But, I think the above question should be asked and then answered. If yes, what did the pilot group do to achieve the result? If no, why hasn’t it happened before?

At least at the regional I was at, the senior pilots were so interested in not sharing any money with pilots that escaped to better places that they never even considered anything that could be called "retro." You'll find most examples were regionals that also likely had decided to avoid anything that shared money with those who left.

We got pretty darn close to it. We also got retro for those that retired, those that went elsewhere and our deceased.

I didn't get any retro since the TA was reached after I left, and anyone who left wasn't included. I doubt anyone still there had any kind of retro either to be honest, but I don't know the details. For me, it honestly has less to do with the money, and more to do with preventing this from happening again. If we were to get something in the next agreement that included raises tied to inflation past the amendable date, I would consider it.

A better question might be why would Mooner not advocate full retro?

Even better question, why didn’t you read the post? It says why I’m agnostic. You can put retro value anywhere, from 100% upfront in a check, combination of a check and larger raises for out years, or no retro check and even larger out year raises. The total value at the end is what matters. A simple calculator can tell the whole story. Context gives meaning.

I just went through the calculation for the latest and greatest rumor at United. 15 5 5, not including the 5% coming in 2023. So really it would be 15, 10, 5. It’s unclear whether or how much retro was stipulated in the rumor. Looking at inflation, they would beat it by .6% compounded annually for the 6 year deal. Not great, but a positive number and certainly better than the long term negative number. Any retro will of course move the annual compounded rate higher.

Some will declare victory if we capture inflation. Some will declare victory if we capture inflation plus x%. Everyone’s x is different. Less than 100 retro upfront may do the trick to reach your x depending on what the initial pay raise and outlying years look like.

My personal desire is to maximize the attainable value over the entire contract.

Who isn't advocating for full retro? Sure give me 15% back to the amenable date........only that will never happen.

“full” retro never seems to get defined

That's why I prefer "back wages" based on negotiated rates for 2020, 2021, 2022 and soon 2023.

Exactly this. This is full retro to me. Not 20% every year, but a modest raise equal to or greater than inflation for 2020, 2021, and 2022, and then a larger raise in 2023 (assuming we sign a contract beginning then). Anyone who worked at all during those years gets the retro, including retirees and deceased. No retro for VEOPs after their VEOP date, but any work prior pays retro or "back wages."

Exactly this. Back pay maintains the principle for those that retired or left but performed work for parts of any year after the amenable date. If it were to only cover inflation (or a modest amount above it), then it also wouldn't be a huge windfall (likely less than the signing bonuses at Alaska for many). This is also probably much easier to explain to anyone who isn't a pilot, "X percent for 2020, Y percent for 2021, Z percent for 2022." It also has the added advantage of making new rates in the contract not look obscene to other work groups, etc. If the baseline is moved for the previous years via modest increases, then compounding interest would make a less eye-popping percentage increase for 2023 actually pay out more.

Exactly. You know whenever the .gov "shuts down" while the DC morons argue over the budget, all those .gov workers get back pay. Fauci's Flu should be no different for us if that is the excuse they are trying to use.

Such an excellent Christian tone and response. You’re really a great representative.

I admit I am flawed. How thoughtful of you to point it out.

He/she/it represents their/them views so classy.

You can argue the tone for sure, but his underlying point seems sound. The federal government sure seems to get full retro when they shut down. I’ve told my reps retro is a must for me. To not get it incentives the company to drag things out.

No argument on retro. He’s been preaching on another thread and his post above was simply oozing with sweet irony.

Settle down Gspot

I am not sure that your take on UAL is correct. IIRC 5% is already coming and is included in the 15%. In any case that went down in flames - so we got that going for us, which is nice.

Scoop

He will work fine. I'm not remotely confused about that.