In “retro” spect…
 

…. We are spending a lot of time calculating what we should have gotten for retro pay, but I bet within a year we will wish we had a “‘me too” clause with our Delta Flight attendants pay raises, instead of United or American pilots.

My guess is 5 months. Anyone else care to guess when, or if it will happen?

Is this a serious post?

My guess is that a single precent of "me too" with United is a greater dollar value raise in compensation than the entirety of what they get paid.

I read this wrong and apologize. I thought this was another apples and oranges comparison of FA and pilot pay.

I don’t think it will matter very much. Applicants will shotgun apply, just like pilots, and most will stick with whomever hired them first. Some will leave for better pastures, we will gain some from others. Some will likely quit the profession altogether. In the end, I think delta will keep pay rates comparable so it shouldn’t even be a factor.

Did I miss a post because that's exactly how I am reading it.

1.) Not dollar amount. Percentages. As in, if the company raises other employer groups pay a certain percent, our pay would go up as well. Doesn’t have to be 1:1. 30% could get us 3%. 20% could get us 2%. 10% could get is 1%. .

2.)I’m guessing neither UAL or AA will surpass our wide body rates. I bet the company is pretty sure of that too. Most of my buds at UAL would take our new pay rates and gains in other areas of their contract.

All I’m saying is it’s likely that it would have been more advantageous for us to tie an increase in our pay rates to our company’s strong desire to keep the FA’s non unionized over another company and its pilots commitment to paying its wide body pilots more than us.

And I think it's disingenuous to compare % raises of a group that, on average, makes 20-30% of what we make, and that's just in rates only. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a "me too" that triggers some sort of raise, but, no, I don't think it's reasonable for us to get a 16% raise if they get a 16% raise.

Pretty certain that was acknowledged in the post you replied to.

Thanks. I glossed over it. I apologize to the previous OP

If that’s the case I stand by my original statement.

I have always thought we should have a me too for the non-cons post amendable date. If the company can afford a 4% raise for the majority of the employees we should get it too, while working out the details of the PWA. Our contract never expires but yet our payscale does, how stupid is that?

There were/are regionals that have guaranteed raises after the amendable date. Obviously the company won’t allow that because it allows them to repeat what we are going through and save a boatload of money.

Id prefer that if anyone in the western world gets a raise, including congress, we get that plus 1%.

Middle eastern sheikhs would be my comparative set. I make more than most congress people.

I have zero interest in any me-too with other Delta work groups…other than maybe Ed.

Same here.

So you are fine with pay stagnation after 4 years when your contract is again overdue? The whole retro fiasco, slowed/rushed timeline for the PWA would be moo. Explain to me why you don't want a pay mechanism that accounts for the non expiration of the perpetual PWA.

Im for a mechanism, but not one tied to non-cons. This will eventually boomerang on us.

I think it would have been smart to tie as many “mechanisms” for our pay raises to as many things as possible.

If the company has enough to pay other employees after crying broke to us — pay us a percentage too.

If the company has enough money to pay millions to buy 49% of another airline — give us a 5% raise.

If the company has enough money to buy stock back — pay us too.

We should always be looking to think out of the box for our advantage. You can best believe the company is always doing this. It’s why we keep getting beat.

Believe it or not, I actually just meant what I said - nothing more or less. No, I don’t seek pay stagnation any more than you do. I just don’t care to create a connection with an unrelated workgroup. I don’t care about non-unionized/non-contract employee compensation or work rules. NMFP. I’m not a flight attendant, I’m not a dispatcher, I don’t work at the GO starbucks and I don’t clean lavs or fix airplanes.

If you want to correlate our pay in some way to executive compensation, that’s a different animal. But no, I honestly don’t want to synch up with 20,000 employees whose job qualifications and training couldn’t be more different than mine. That type of trigger might sound like a nice backstop, but it wouldn’t come without negotiations and likely some quid pro quo. No thanks.

You're not in the C-suite. You ARE an employee. The internal parity is what matters. This is about Delta's ability to afford the labor it employs. The rate trigger tied to an outside group or government measurement would be fine but it doesn't motivate Delta. Instead we consistently fail to add value to a contract that is locking in today's rates for years to come. This is like being on the wrong end of a futures trade by choice and consistently accepting that outcome. It's absolutely ridiculous that our contract can be regulated to be outdated and we don't mitigate that risk. If the .gov wanted to set pricing on tickets and keep them low for years without resolution, Delta and the airlines would find a way around it. Surcharges for fuel, or charge separately for each part of the service, or some other mechanism. What they would NOT do is be OK with it and accept it consistently. We are morons when it comes to business contracts.

First it was payrate thirst over Endeavor now it's payrate thirst over our FAs. Do pilots not understand the law of large number wrt pay increases by percentage? Lusting over pay increases of workgroups that not only pay significantly less than pilots, but also significantly worse workrules is beneath the Delta pilots. Stop the madness

Internal parity with high school grads is not a priority to me, but you do you. I’ve got enough other wishes for negotiations. For fun, though, talk us through how we implement global me-too clauses, and how they rectify the world. I mean, do we just tell the company that’s how it’s gonna be, or do we tell the mediator to tell them we’re going to create a construct that exists nowhere else in Fortune 500 companies, much less our peer group? I admit it - I’m a moron when it comes to negotiations. Mr. Luby probably is too. I mean in all likelihood, we’ve got all the morons on our side and the company has the experts.

Next up, talk us through how we get 5:15 vacation and training, six weeks of vacation, 25% DC, raises that always exceed inflation, pay rates that always match our decades-past high water mark, qol gains that beat every industry…all while we work less.

You have been averaging 4-4.5% annual COLA increases your entire career at Delta (not to mention advancement). So have they. The difference is the timeliness and the retro we ignore. Nobody is comparing you to a FA, get over it. They are comparing your labor cost relative to all employees.

We are experiencing 40-year high inflation, and we cannot get COLAs; cannot even match the CPI in our future pay increases; and the company gets a 4-year contract from us. This is a yuge risk. I truly do not understand why we agreed in principle to a 4-year contract.

A5S

There are a few reasons why I suggest it in the future.

1.) We should be tired of the company giving other employees pay raises from money they say they didn't have for us. They were broke in October. l bet ironically, all of a sudden, they will have tons of cash by May.

2.). Besides the current UAL +5% rates for their Covid agreement, when was the last time United or American negotiated higher wide body pay rates than Delta?

United in 2000.They did give credit for that rate to Delta achieving the "Delta Dot" which was what they referred to our new 777 rate when we first got the aircraft. On the chart of industry rates, the dot was an obvious outlier. It set the stage for the United rates and our UAL+ campaign achieved an even higher rate for us.

That’s what I remember too. Almost 23 years ago. Even though they have had several opportunities to negotiate higher rates than Delta since then, they didn’t.

I don’t really expect them to do it now. It would be a nice surprise though.


That’s my point.

I agree completely. United and American both have a lengthy history of being incapable of setting a new bar for everyone else to leap frog in pattern bargaining. We need national to get the respective neg comms on the same sheet of music a little more.

Looks like the American prediction has come true.

Let's see what United does...

The other employees get a yearly raise. I would bet those raises the next 4 years exactly match your new contract.