Payback days
 

Several times now they did not put any pb’s on my schedule, has this been a problem for anyone else? Is there a system in place that will catch these mistakes eventually if I don’t call them? How should I report this problem?

There is no system in place to catch it and they "forget" them all the time.

yes, no, call CS.

When I’ve called CS it was very easy, they got added to the schedule right away on the next proper calendar day. It might work in your favor to call when that next proper day is convenient for you (like in the bank because there are no days left). YMMV
edit for bad autocorrect

Excellent advice. And pay attention to the PR times as well. I’ve had to call multiple times and finally speak to a supervisor to get it corrected.

That's one of those headscratchers, but the bottom line is that it is a manual process. Hard to believe I know. I actually asked a supervisor once about that, and she told me "we've asked them ("them" being Delta Lack-Of Techology) for years to automate this process, but they always say they don't have the money to spare for the programming change."

How it should work.

1. When awarded a reserve GS or IA, scheduling immediately places the PB days on your schedule based on the trip being flown exactly as scheduled.

2. When the trip is over, the software runs a post-trip scan and sees if the PB days need to be adjusted. For example, if you are running late and arrive two hours later than originally scheduled, then the PB days would automatically be adjusted to begin and end two hours later than the original placement.


How it actually works.

1. Scheduling may place the PB days on your schedule when you are awarded the GS, and they may not. My personal experience is that they place them about 2/3 of the time. While this isn't actually contractually required at this point, I certainly thing that it is a good idea. Keep an eye on that. I had one occasion where they didn't do that right away and then tried to place SC on my schedule the next day. Of course that didn't happen when I called them but that is the kind of stuff that might happen if you aren't paying attention.

2. After the trip, scheduling rarely, if ever manually updates the PB days when they need to be. I've had more than one occasion where we blocked in late and the original PB day times remained unchanged. It was quickly fixed with a phone call but it is ridiculous that the phone call had to be made in the first place.


Like others have already mentioned, you have a couple of options. Me personally, once the trip is concluded, I always call to ensure the PB days are correctly placed. Whether that means that scheduling needs to place them *at all* or just adjust the times, I want that reflected correctly. On the other hand, if they didn't place the PB days at all, and you have remaining on call days...and...don't mind perhaps flying normal reserve assignments on those remaining on call days, wait until you have no more on call days remaining. Then, call scheduling to remind them of the missing PB days. They will have no other option other than to place them in your PB day bank, and those are very valuable indeed.

I rolled thunder most of last year. Yes they forget all the time and it got so bad that I started keeping track. They started with about a 25% success rate, but as the month went on they crawled up to about 50-60% chance of actually getting my PB days applied. When they did throw them on the my schedule they often screwed it up, which warranted a call. Sometimes it works in your favor...

Is CS not giving my my PB day something I should submit and ACE for?

Just call CS, they're great when you tell them it's not right. Only occasionally have I had to tell them what they put on my line still isn't right.

An ACE report should only be used if you’ve already contacted scheduling and they still haven’t resolved the situation properly. Working directly with the company to fix the issue is always the first step.

This is a great technique on fixing PB days. You may even PD reserve days before calling thereby forcing banked PB days.

Many times it works in your favor so I’d prefer the process stays manual.

Payback Day Usage
 

I have a good number of PB days in the bank that I’d like to get maximum value from. I have a four-day trip in Dec. where day one of the trip blocks just over 8 hours. From what I understand, I can drop that trip and apply a PB day for just day one. Ideally, I’d like to drop, pick up, drop, pick up, etc. over and over to use up all my PB days. However, adequate reserve coverage and white slip pick up limits would preclude me from doing this, right? I’ve heard there may be a workaround for this by having a friend pick up/swap. Scheduling Alert 22-01 Payback Days states:

“Recall that, if you wish to use PB Days to drop a rotation(s) on which there is insufficient reserve coverage and you do not wish to use your APD or an IVD, you may submit both a PB
Day and a PD request for the same rotation(s). If another pilot subsequently is awarded the resulting Qualified Personal Drop (QPD) rotation, your PD request will be awarded. You can
then use the SmartSheet on the Crew Resources/Scheduling page in DeltaNet to request that a PB Day(s) be placed over the dropped rotation(s).”

How does this process actually work? How does the other pilot pick up the trip, and how do I pick it back up? Is this done through PCS? Are there any downsides for the other pilot in helping you out? E.g. When they pick up the trip, does that count against their WS pick up limit? Anyone in LAX73NB that can help me out?

Thank you for your help.

Never done it myself so take it with a grain of salt but I believe you have the process correct. Your buddy will white slip your Q trip via PCS. He is subject to white slip limits to do this. After you do the smart sheet magic, he gives it back to you via the pilot swap board which disregards your non-FAA limits and reduces his WS limits back to their original state. Rinse, repeat, toast to buying the good scotch.

You don’t need to do the smart sheet magic anymore. They updated iCrew such that when you put in your PB with PD request, you simply tell it how many PB days you would like to use if it drops. They anlso upped the limit from 2 to 10 events on a day (Hey, progress!!). When the friend picks it up as a Q trip, it processes automatically. The easiest way to get it back to repeat the process is via MiCrew friends. You can either pull it back, or he can push it back. It’s super easy. There was an epic example last year where a 765 FO did this to the tune of 999 hours of credit in one MONTH.

I’m not sure about the WS limit resetting when the trip goes back. I thought the WS limit only went one way, but I’m not an expert on that part. But if that IS a problem (finding a friend with enough WS pickup limit), you can look in the wide report for someone with vacation in the month (because vacay doesn’t count against WS pickup limit) and cold-call them asking for help. 99% chance they will happily do so. A case of beer/handle of scotch would be appropriate. And it’s all 100% legal. Good luck.

Find someone who's schedule is open and can "pick up" the trip for you. I've done this several times. You can take it back via pilot swap board. I've done this where both pilots can cash in PBs but one of you will eventually hit the pick up limit.

it helps if your trading partner is very senior so some other knucklehead doesn’t pick up the trip you’re trying to bounce back and forth.

I haven't had that problem, yet. I coordinate before the PCS run but a blind WS could mess it up. The other pilot always puts in a request for the specific trip and there's no way for others to know what or when you are going to PD/PB. Most of the blind WS from seniors are day of fishing for assignment violations.

Sweet baby jesus

Wow, hadn't heard of this one. Do you know if his sched got posted anywhere? Would love to see it....

Do you know/recall how many PBs it took to do that??


Nope--WS limit sets & resets itself in real time as stuff gets added/dropped from your line.

His timecard was posted somewhere.. pretty sure I saved it. I'll look and see if I can find it deep in my phone 😂

IIRC it was 65+ PB days

Good to know, learn something new every day. I almost never bid a line, so there you go...

Using PB days is pay and credit, so you will hit the limit if using multiple days. Another way around the pickup limit is swapping one trip for two trips since the only swap constraint is FARs, not WS pickup limit.

Here is the PCS logic I used without a PB friend.

PCS cycle 1
PB drop Trip 1
PCS swap Trip 2 for Trip 1 and Trip 3

PCS cycle 2
PB drop Trip 1
PCS swap Trip 3 for Trip 1 and Trip 2

lather rinse repeat till out of PB days

Or double down
PB drop Trip 1 & 2
PCS swap Trip 3 for Trip 1,2 and 4

PB drop Trip 1 & 2
PCS swap Trip 4 for Trip 1,2 and 3

this burns 2 PB per PCS cycle vs just 1 PB

* Any resemblence to Trip 7 is purely coincidental and not an infringement on a trademarked screenname.


Other thoughts
PB days are pay/credit, so if you PB drop 70 hours (GS trigger), you can fly an entire month at GS pay for every trip.

Does anyone know:

The person picking up the trip via WS, do they have to put in a new WS request before each PCS run or does one slip for the specific trip stay active even after the trip was awarded?

I believe he needs to put in multiple WS requests but he can put in a bunch at one time to make it easy . WS1, WS2 etc.

Also vacation prior to the trip is better than vacation after. I tried to work this with a senior Pilot who had vacation and they had a block limit that I failed to detect. They flew heavy in the last half of the previous month - so be careful.

Maybe you can ask whoever you are working with to run the trip through the rules auditor to check if it will process.

Scoop

Not to high jack this thread, but I also have a Pay Back question. I still have 3 pay back days from this summer. Would you all recommend using them all now, or letting some of them convert to SUPP days (assuming I can make them work). I'm a new hire who will hit year 2 pay in May with hopes to bid vacation in the fall.

Depends on what you are looking for. For max $$ you'd want to use them now. On most fleets you can find a trip with ~8 hours of block on day 1, so 3 PB days turns into 24 hours of pay. On the other hand, letting them convert to SUPP days can help you get more time off next year, especially if you use them as IVD's to drop a trip or reserve days when coverage is bad.

Just wondering if anyone knows where on SkyHub I can go to read more about this heart-warming story & see screenshots of the timecard? Or maybe I can find it in the next Weekly Update under #PilotsMakingADifference?

:D

Thanks! Do you have to put a PB Day on Day 1 of a trip. For example, I have a 4 day trip next month and day 3 is 8+ hours of block.

Yes the PB days used to drop a trip will always go to the first day through last day of the trip (depending on trip length and how many PB days your using to drop it). No sharpshooting days of the trip. Also, all credit in a trip goes to the last day, so be careful to pick a trip that has high BLOCK on the days you'll be using a PB day on.

I was having trouble finding a reference to verify this. Does using a PB Day cover the pay no credit items like EDP, Carve, Holiday, etc?

On the same lines, if you use a PB Day for a "2 Day" trip that includes a Redeye into the 3rd day (ie a 15:45 credit trip), do you only need 2 PB days to cover the whole rotation?

A PB day will pay all soft credit other than holiday pay if you use a PB day for the last day of the trip. In other words you need to cover the entire trip with PB days if you want the soft part since all credit pays on the last day and you can’t just use a PB day on the last day - you have to start on day one and go forward each day. Generally if max money is your goal you will do better by finding a high block first day and just using that repeatedly. If you can find a 2 day trip that has some good EDP and sit pay in addition to high block on both days then that can work well for using 2 PB days. A 3 or 4 day to would have to have a ton of soft pay, even if it is a hard time trip, to beat churning a 7-8 hour block first day.

You should only need two PB days to cover a trip ending in a red eye but I’m not 100% sure on that one.

I know some Pilots will drop a PB in the middle of a 5 day block of on call days to prevent from doing a 3 day trip in International categories. This seems like an inefficient use of PB days. Couldn't you just use a PD day? Does a PB day have more "clout" with regards to breaking up days of availbility or requiring positive coverage for drop then a regular PD? If so it would make sense, if not why not use a PD and use the PB for a high block day 1 trip TOFF?

Scoop - Confused as usual

im in a 4-99-4 category and I’m almost 100% sure you can’t drop below 4 day blocks with PDs. I think you can do that in 3-99-5 categories but I’m not sure.

I think PB days do have more “clout” as you put it than a PD.

Also, on reserve you can’t fly over a PD day but can over a PB day. Helps if you are trying to GS or roll thunder.

This. In such categories PB days, IVDs, and APD all allow you to drop below the 4 day min block of RES. P/D does not, regardless of Reserves Available.

From a QOL perspective, this makes PB days MUCH more valuable when used as such…if that’s important to you.

The PWA just says it "may" be denied on WB categories. So it's not an absolute no, but I don't remember ever having one approved in my time on a WB lol.

In your first example, would trip 2 and trip 3 have to have the same dates (e.g. four day trip starting on Dec. 10)? Otherwise, due to reserve coverage, is it possible for the trip swap to work in one direction but not the other (e.g. four day trip starting on Dec. 10 and four day trip starting Dec. 12)?