YS "If needed to fly" ???!
 

Has anyone successfully used this function?

Scenario: a couple of trips in open time last night that I knew, based on RES availability, would need to go out as GS or be broken up. RES coverage is good for the broken trips and I'm in the bulseye for a broken trip. Since they haven't actually broken the trips up yet, I can't 'avoid pairing number' as a YS.

I put in a YS 'Preference Qualifiers To Be Used Only If Needed To Fly' with the specific layover requests of 'NO LAYOVERS IN: JFK LGA EWR' as well as 'MUST LAYOVER IN AT LEAST ONE: AMS'

Low-and-behold, I check daily trip coverage after the run this morning and I'm assigned the ONE trip that lays over in JFK! One Sr. pilot and one Jr. got the AMS trips that would have avoided the JFK layover. WTF, over??

Needless to say, I called CS and explained the situation. They ran it up to the supervisor, verified my YS was indeed in there (and very specific) and swapped trips with the Jr pilot. I'm satisfied with the outcome, but, again, WTF??

Does this function even work?

If needed to fly, I believe it goes into seniority based. Did the trip you wanted went into YS, WS, GS?

It also depends on the other people’s qualifier or if is your turn to fly or who is legal for what flying.

Also “preference qualifiers” are not YS. I will suggest to bid specific trips in Open Time. Also, if the Jr pilot had a YS, he will get it, because you’re a is not a YS. You probably got what it was left.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re getting at here but an If Needed is absolutely treated as a yellow slip if you are identified as a pilot subject to a trip assignment.

All three trips went out as RES assignments. (no YS, WS or GS). The CS checked the other two pilot's slips and neither one had any YS or other Reserve Preferences.

We were all legal and, looking at the assignment times, it went Jr., Me, Sr. (proper sequence) but the trips were assigned randomly, they weren't even assigned in numeric order, up or down.

I don't YS unless there is a trip that I actually want. There is always a chance that someone will WS/GS/YS a trip and save me from having to fly.

I understand the purpose of RES is to cover flying and accept that, when I'm on RES and 'in the bullseye', I'm packed and ready to fly. My issue is that this process (Reserve Preferences) does not seem to be honored during trip assignments and CS can't even explain why.

If they were covered in the same batch, a "if needed" has the power of a YS. Call back and make them fix it. If not, it's assignment pay for the first day of reserve.

"If needed" YSs have never worked for me. I quit using them because they back fire more often than not. Just my experience. FWIW

I use this all the time and it absolutely goes In senority order even if someone else has a YS in. The senior pilot will get the trip. Crew schedulers
do not seem to understand it and I’ve had to call a bunch of times about it. Usually after talking to the supervisor it gets straightened out and the trips get assigned correctly. There was a scheduling alert sent out a few years ago about it. I don’t think anyone read it lol.

Did you ever call to get it straightened out?

Done. As soon as I saw it, I called and they did fix it.

But the kicker is even the CS and Sup couldn't explain what happened. Is it another situation where our 1980s DOS system can't figure out how to make it work? I'm going to submit an ACE inquiry and send this one to ALPA Scheduling to see if it's something deeper.

Not being able to explain it isn't top cover. Submit a pay request via the Pilot assist app.

Is this something I might get extra for (finding an incorrect assignment??) or should someone else get extra? TIA

Why would he submit a pay request? They swapped the trips for him. They just couldn't explain how the original error happened.

Oops. Sorry. I missed where they swapped it for him.

In that case, no pay is due. They fixed it.

Rats! I was hoping...:)

For the future, I've never waited until it was too late to change it and gotten the pay. Not once.

I called to ask what happened and got several nonsensical responses. I didn't push to get out of or into a particular trip because it wasn't worth the effort to get a supervisor to call me back ... at some point. And I didn't have the particulars of how the assignments should have been made. The responses I got were either that's not how the function works, or the computer said you were next, or some other BS. Basicaly I was too lazy and knew I'd be flying something anyway and didn't really care to persue it close to report with the CP or Sup. I learned the lesson that hassle factor outweighs MCO vs TPA layover etc.

This^^^^^, 99% of the time for me as well.

This time, however, it also affected show-time and options to get home early (DDH options). This was the 1%

DART submitted. Do you guys think an ACE inquiry would help since there's no pay/assignment issue any more?

I’ve had this happen multiple times.

Always requires a call to get it straightened out. 99% sure there is no automation in place to handle these and they only get looked at if you call and squawk.

Were all three trips open then covered at the same time?

The "if needed" YS is only looked at when the pilot has been identified to fly (i.e., you're getting SOME trip), there are one or more additional pilots also identified to fly, and there's multiple trips to be covered.

If (for example) the junior pilot got tagged to fly his trip before you, THEN the JFK trip hit OT and was covered as the only trip in that bucket... then you get it, and the "if needed" doesn't come into play. In other words, your YS can't force the senior guy to fly if he's not already tagged to fly one of multiple rotations. On the other hand, if the JFK was the only trip to be covered when it got sent out, it would go to the junior pilot (since your YS was "if needed"--and, with only one trip to cover, you weren't needed). Then the next trip comes out, you're first in line, and TAG!, you're it....

Honestly I don't think they hardly ever look at it. I'm almost 0% effective at them following my short call if needed requests. Very annoying having to call almost every time to have it corrected. I've never been given any pushback but annoying none the less

As far as I can tell, all trips were in OT, and all pilots were available at the time of the run since they were assigned one minute apart (originally).

The scenario that you describe (trips hitting OT and being covered one-at-a-time) could happen with this set of trips/RES pilots if they (CS) broke up one trip, awarded that trip, broke up the next trip, then awarded that trip. In that case the junior pilot would have gotten the first trip created by breaking up the 6-days then I'd have gotten the second. The problem with this theory (in this case) is the trips are numbered sequentially as they are created. Numerically, the JFK trip was created first and awarded second.

No. An ACE inquiry won’t tell you anything you don’t already know. PWA 23.S.16, the SRH, and Sched Alert 20-09 are absolutely black-and-white clear, and binding. They 100% MUST honor your “if needed” in your scenario. It is not an option.

PLEASE file an FCR and ask for a reply. Make them answer for their failure to train and enforce contract compliance. It’s inexcusable this is still happening. CS is LAZY and just don’t look. They don’t want to admit that, so they make up some story to cover their mistake. Even supervisors have been unaware, forcing me to involve the CPO before to force them to honor the contract.

Good call. Thank you for the references. FCR submitted.

Sched Alert 20-09 is awesome! I can't believe I haven't bookmarked this! I only bid reserve about 2-3 times per year and this is an awesome resource.

Oh, wait, this is only an awesome resource if you are in a different category than me. Otherwise it has nothing of interest for you citizen, move along. These are not the reserve tips you are looking for. :)

i had this issue about 2 years ago. Used “if needed to fly” with a specific trip of two that were going to be assigned. I got the other one. Called CS and this was verbatim “alot of schedulers dont check the qualifiers”.

so in essence, two year old data indicates that the “qualifier” aspect is manual……and people are lazy.

I've had these ignored in the past as well. I have called and sometimes they reverse and correct it, other times, they don't. I filed an ACE report when it was ignored and they wouldn't correct it when I called. ACE finally paid off for once. (It happened July '22, and pay arrived Dec '23!)

fwiw, my technique is to hawk the fight in the mornings when they are sorting this out and this situation is in play. If they mess it up you can have it changed as long as the other pilot hasn’t acknowledged the trip yet.

The other pilot acknowledge *shouldn't* have nothing to do with it....scheds has up to 2 hour prior to report to fix erroneously assigned rotations.

I feel you brother, but just like in the Air Force “should” and “Will” are two different things. To continue the “verbatim”, the scheduler mulled it over, and then said, “since the other pilot hasn’t accepted it, I will change it.” Maybe things have changed. Hasn’t happened to me in a while.

I’ve had a trip that I “if needed” preferenced get awarded to a junior yellow slip while I got a less optimum trip. I called and they changed it to give me the trip I had preferenced. The other pilot called to say they had yellow slipped it, and since preferences don’t show as anything other than a regular reserve assignment, they took it back to give to the other pilot. I had to call again to get the trip back on my line.

They can fix it up to two hours out, they just don’t want to. Stick with it if you really want the trip, or I guess you could just wait and get paid for the misaward later.

I’d laugh if it weren’t so dang frustrating. Good for you for keeping an eye out and calling.

FWIW, an “if needed” is supposed to show as a “Y” on trip coverage.

Which takes precedent though. A straight YS, or a if needed YS? Or are they the same and the senior takes it?

If you're needed, it's a yellow.

If you are "needed", it acts exactly like a 'normal' YS.

*edit* CBreezy didnt walk away from the computer for a couple mintues. Oops. lol

You are all stuck with me for the next 24 hours because I tweaked my back. Everyone hunker down because I'm bored and cranky

Trust me you'll get tired of it. I just spent the last 10 days out sick and I can tell you that with all honesty.

I look forward to your posts. With that kind of perfect storm we might be calling you wahsdarB kciN.

how about just wah wah for short

good approach, btw. This is the way.

When this happens do you ask to speak with a scheduler or just deal with whomever answers the phone? Are the schedulers generally receptive to sorting through these type of issues? I imagine this must be a PITA if they are busy - not that thats our problem.

Scoop

I dealt with whomever answered the phone. They did seem receptive the time I dealt with it. But mine is only one data point.