Im not proposing we all suffer for commuting- I’m just pointing out that high ADGs have tradeoffs. Look at Southwest. You want AMs or PMs? All their trips are 12 hour layovers and noncommutable on one end or the other. To some pilots, I’m sure that sounds awesome. To others (like me), this sounds awful. We already have 24:00+ 4-days in the bid packet. If you want them, go bid them. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. I LIKE the flexibility in our current system. Sometimes I bid for high EDP. Sometimes I don’t. With super high ADGs there are tradeoffs. It’s not like 95% of trips are magically going to stay 21:00 block and they pay us 28:00 for the 4-day. The trip construction will turn to money-making barn burners, perhaps requiring less overall pilots. Optimizer will be able to crank to eleven.

All their trips are 12 hour layovers and noncommutable on one end or the other

aww…. That’s cute

There's not enough airplanes to start every rotation that early. So that can't happen.

It might me a lot more one day rotations. It might mean more redeyes. It might mean 3 days credit 21 hours minimum and we all work only 10 days/mo. It might mean a lot of things. My main point is that arbitrarily advocating for the ADG to be lower ins't helping pilots, it's helping the company. Lower ADG gives the optimizer more solution space, not less.

The kicker is we have shorter TATL flights that leave JFK/BOS earlier and are 3-man.

if I’m not mistaken it’s because of the departure time on the flight back. The non acclimated report times for an early AM Europe departure make it difficult/ impossible to make it work legally, where the late PM departure to Europe has a later report time for the flight back and less likely a 2 pilot crew will time out.

doesn’t make the flight there suck any less though.

Sure there is. It doesn’t have to be a 0600 departure to be uncommutable. A 0900 departure is also uncommutable.

Keep in mind that there is a sweet spot. The FA’s get way less for the same trip. That’s a huge data point for why a lower ADG is bad. Also, those broken trips will now be worth way less.

But again, ALPA has put higher ADG in the optimizer. I can’t say this loudly enough: you would hate the results. Yes, a few edge cases would be great, but the overall bid pack would be horrible. Even with a 15 or 30 minute addition.

I flew a bunch of Europe including AMS and CDG as two man trips. Not fun! The good news is FAR117 makes that a difficult scheduling choice for the company because your duty day on the return leg is so short any delay can cause a cancel. The company can however change the trips to 4 day rotations and avoid the issue. If they do that they need to eat the extra hotel costs and a full day of credit for the two man crew. United is doing this on some EWR trips like BRU. It makes for a crappy 16 day schedule.

I was 23 years on the Mad Dog. When it left I had full intent to go to the 320. One good look at the rotations and I said no way. Lack of commutability, short layovers and a lot of block.
Senior on the 717 isn’t a bad place to be. Lot of long layovers, easy days, short legs.
I stopped seeking glamour and exotic locales a long time ago, and I’d rather get a good nights sleep.

Crappy for some but gold for others. 48 hrs+ in Europe to get acclimated is, to my mind, the "correct" way physiologically to deal with circadian distruptions across the pond. Everyone is tired on the backside of a normal 3 day Europe, augmented or not. I'll bid a 21 hr ADG 4 day Europe all day long even un-augmented over the now typical 3 day/24 ... its better for my body and my lifestyle and worth the 'efficiency' hit to me.

4 on, 3 off, enjoy the layover, home time will be limited.