Originally Posted by Mesabah

That's one of our SDTs, so I don't know what to tell you. Here is the worst one in the system I suppose:

TRIP #524 D7523 DTW: 1_34__7 effective SEP 07-SEP 29 except SEP 08 SEP 15 SEP 17 SEP 22 SEP 24
DAY FLT# DEP ARR DEP ARR BLK SAT TOG DUTY CREDIT LO CODE F/24 TAFB A/C
---- ----------- --- --- --------- --------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ------ --------- ---- ----- ---
RPT (01)21:06 0h45
Su 1 03921 DTW SWF (01)21:51 (03)23:32 1h41 1h37 6h28 1h37 DutyRm 0h00 2h26 CPJ
Mo 2 03755 SWF DTW (10)06:00 (11)07:45 1h45 1h49 1h49 0h00 10h39 CPJ
RLS (12)08:00 3h26 0h15 10h54 4h00(M)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
TAFB: 10h54 Block Time: 3h26 Credit Time: 4h00(D) 16.5048543
__________________________________________________ ______________

Time on the ground is 6:28. I admit, this one is awful because of the 1:45 leg time.

Originally Posted by gloopy

Again with the non sequiturs.

I am in favor of reasonable circadian protections for off cycle flying. I also think the 10am next day limit should be applied to reserves that do red eyes. However in order to make your point, you have to make up bare bones FAR scenarios that I'm not only not suggesting, but that I'm actively advocating against.

I don't want FAR minimum SDP's or a return to the regional dirt bag manager days of crews sleeping on plywood planks between the seats. It does this discussion no good to flame it with such extreme hyperbole. All you end up doing is setting up a straw man for others to knock down and IMO that makes it more likely we will see SDP's. Unreasonable resistance will become a catalyst to actually enable them the more people cry wolf on this issue.

But why the helmet fire on this anyway? If done right, and that's what this discussion should really be about, they are not one ounce more dangerous than tons of flying we currently do, and are safer than some flying we currently do. I don't advocate a wild west fly to the FAR's management fantasy. Far from it. I want numerous layers of protections for lineholders and reserves alike.

They are desirable, can pay well, and can significantly increase the QOL for both those that do them and those that don't, and they can do it just as safe or safer than flying we currently do.

Originally Posted by Mesabah

Yeah, the 2.5 hour leg restriction made it a non starter, obviously, but they can be done. Here's what's needed, based on my experience:
Minimum 5 hours rest, non-violate, behind the door, at the hotel.
Hotel must be within 10 minutes of the airport.
Max 1.5 hour leg for flights departing between 7PM-8:30PM local
Max 1 hour leg for flights departing between 8:30PM-10:30PM local
No flights allowed past 10:30PM local
Flights must remain in one time zone
Earliest 6AM departure time.
Minimum 7.5 hours credit per SDT.
Minimum two days preceding, and following a string of any SDP's.
SDT are limited to only SDT line holders, no hybrid lines.
Max string of 3 SDT's for line holders, maximum 2 for reserves- waivable at pilot's request.

I think those rules would leave you with 1400 min credit for the year, for a full load of CDO's monthly, without killing yourself in the process, and being home everyday.

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

Your points are good (and thanks for chiming in with your own experience) but how would you reconcile the post of "only SDT line holders, no hybrid lines" with our preferential bidding system? PBS by design is a "hybrid" line building system.

While lots of guys might bid these, and some bid them exclusively, there would be many more that would bid perhaps just one or two. Or, throughout the month they might want to pick one up here and there. How is that done at Mesabah?

Originally Posted by tsquare

I think we have helmet fires on this because we don't have this crap now. And even if we somehow negotiate "protections", they WILL get violated, and pilots WILL fly them and grieve it later. Then begins the data collection. There is little upside in that. And then there's the likelihood that the "protections" will be watered down in subsequent contracts, because they were "proven" to be safe. Naaaaaah, let's leave that dumb ass camel out in the desert where it belongs or else make it onerous enough to the company that they won't want to do them.

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

Your points are good (and thanks for chiming in with your own experience) but how would you reconcile the post of "only SDT line holders, no hybrid lines" with our preferential bidding system? PBS by design is a "hybrid" line building system.

While lots of guys might bid these, and some bid them exclusively, there would be many more that would bid perhaps just one or two. Or, throughout the month they might want to pick one up here and there. How is that done at Mesabah?

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

I'm a simple minded guy. You all can discuss the arguments for and against CDO's. But, bottom line, with an ADG of 5:15, any CDO paying less than 10:30 is a concession.

Denny

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

I'm a simple minded guy. You all can discuss the arguments for and against CDO's. But, bottom line, with an ADG of 5:15, any CDO paying less than 10:30 is a concession.

Denny

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

I'm a simple minded guy. You all can discuss the arguments for and against CDO's. But, bottom line, with an ADG of 5:15, any CDO paying less than 10:30 is a concession.

Denny