Details on Delta TA
#121
In fairness to ALPA's financial folks, it would have been difficult to determine whether managements would have pulled the bankruptcy trigger. In the case of the old Delta, some analysts at the time said they were in such bad shape that Delta was days away from liquidation. In the case of NWA, some analysts called it a contrived bankruptcy to freeze pensions and extract concessions when NWA was not even close to being insolvent.
ALPA financial folks likely had an accurate picture of each airline's financial health, but no accurate guess as to who would pull the bankruptcy trigger.
ALPA financial folks likely had an accurate picture of each airline's financial health, but no accurate guess as to who would pull the bankruptcy trigger.
I'm not sure that's true. With my limited knowledge of Section 1 of our contract, I understand that we had little to no protection against international codesharing in the past, let alone these new-fangled "Joint Ventures." Only in the past several iterations has the contract added limitations to such arrangements, with at least a requirement to attempt negotiating a production balance, etc.
Could be wrong here.
#122
I have no idea what happened with 2012... One minute I'm reading our chairman saying we won't rush or settle for an inferior product... the next minute I'm seeing a TA with two years of 3% pay increases, giving back profit sharing, etc. ... after only two months of a section 6 negotiation!
I don't know about the rest of you, but that didn't come any where close to what I put in my survey! (or any one I have flown with during the last two years...)
Obviously, for whatever reason, 62% disagreed with me.
I don't know about the rest of you, but that didn't come any where close to what I put in my survey! (or any one I have flown with during the last two years...)
Obviously, for whatever reason, 62% disagreed with me.
That, in addition to the other goodies, e.g., vacation and CQ training pay, reserve guarantee, etc., to put me over the top.
#123
Back to the same old argument from you. Let's at least debate the issues from a factual standpoint, and not from a standpoint of declaring things to be true of which we have no personal knowledge.
Or is your intent something other than to have an honest and open debate?
#124
In my previous post, I ask you the same question. Let's all stick to what we personally know and at least accurately ID those of our statements that reflect our opinion, belief, or suspicions. A discussion from that perspective, IMO, will give us the most legitimate and honest debate.
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
Nor did it satisfy what I put in my survey, yet I was part of the 62%. The reason was that, in completing my survey, I was assuming a more traditional timeline with a TA some months after the amendable date (or later). Given the early completion date and the corresponding earlier-than-expected pay increases, we wound up about 14% higher a year after the amendable date than the JCBA (net of profit sharing reduction).
That, in addition to the other goodies, e.g., vacation and CQ training pay, reserve guarantee, etc., to put me over the top.
That, in addition to the other goodies, e.g., vacation and CQ training pay, reserve guarantee, etc., to put me over the top.
As we get pushed harder and harder, where is ALPA safety? Where is the representation when we have 14 hour days, 10:00 overnights followed by another 11-13 hour duty day into a hotel that our own hotel commitee rejects? A requirement spelled out in the PWA. The answer is the company does not respect us, they have done an impressive job of destroying what profession existed and convincing our own union we are just employees.
#126
I was reading out our contract history. If ALPA has financial experts, why didn't ALPA know that a bankruptcy was coming and there was nothing we could do about it? Painful reading about taking huge pay cuts, then going bankrupt and having to negotiate more cuts. To me our financial experts should have been able to tell is that the numbers din't work and bankruptcy was inevitable. I am guessing that we as a whole acted on emotion and fear of losing the pension. This was a major failure of ALPA. This was a time where we needed true leadership to keep us from acting on emotion, and I feel ALPA failed miserably. It resulted in deeper cuts than were necessary and a new lower standard for us IMHO. Relaxing the rj scope was another major failure during this time.
That even continues to this day... with Delta making literally BILLIONS in profits. Ask any of the "leadership" in DALPA if we have an objective for restoration. Crickets. They're more worried about stepping on RA's or EB's toes. UNSAT.
#127
And his replacement amplified the mistake by ushering in even more concessions and setting us on a course that essentially takes restoration off the table.
#128
You voted yes. I sincerely hope you learned a lesson or have had some first hand experiences to make you regret that decision. If you have no regrets or cannot see the mistake then it is indicative of a cultural and educational issue we have at this particular airline. What many have realized is that early contract may likely turn into a 4 to 6 year contract as the company stonewalls our restoration of QOL. Our vacation and CQ training pay is hardly anything to brag about, are you really serious about that pushing you over the top? The fact we are working 5-6 more days a month than SWA to match their average line credit is embarrassing. I am embarrassed we passed C2012.
As we get pushed harder and harder, where is ALPA safety? Where is the representation when we have 14 hour days, 10:00 overnights followed by another 11-13 hour duty day into a hotel that our own hotel commitee rejects? A requirement spelled out in the PWA. The answer is the company does not respect us, they have done an impressive job of destroying what profession existed and convincing our own union we are just employees.
As we get pushed harder and harder, where is ALPA safety? Where is the representation when we have 14 hour days, 10:00 overnights followed by another 11-13 hour duty day into a hotel that our own hotel commitee rejects? A requirement spelled out in the PWA. The answer is the company does not respect us, they have done an impressive job of destroying what profession existed and convincing our own union we are just employees.
#129
So there would have been no additional concessions to come through bankruptcy if JM had remained at the helm? He was good, but I think getting out from under the thumb of a judge during an 1113 unscathed is pretty lofty for anyone.
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#130
Nor did it satisfy what I put in my survey, yet I was part of the 62%. The reason was that, in completing my survey, I was assuming a more traditional timeline with a TA some months after the amendable date (or later). Given the early completion date and the corresponding earlier-than-expected pay increases, we wound up about 14% higher a year after the amendable date than the JCBA (net of profit sharing reduction).
That, in addition to the other goodies, e.g., vacation and CQ training pay, reserve guarantee, etc., to put me over the top.
That, in addition to the other goodies, e.g., vacation and CQ training pay, reserve guarantee, etc., to put me over the top.
"Given the history of Delta pilot compensation, the concessions we took associated with Delta's bankruptcy, and the progress/improvements we've made since Delta emerged from bankruptcy, what should be our objective going forward?"
In my opinion, any progress we make should be measured against our objective. The actions we take, the communications we put out, and the tone we set should be consistent with our objective. If we set a tone and send a message that our objective is something much different from what it really is, then that is counterproductive.
Those are some of the reasons why I voted NO on C2012. I'd like to hear more about your reasons within the context of your expectations and your view of what our objective should be.
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