Carl Spackler

Your continuing problem is that many others have seen you as the person who resorts to the personal attack and emotional labeling for the purpose of disqualifying people as having a right to speak. It's exactly the tactic you used over and over again with pilots at meetings and with reps. It's one of the main reasons you were fired.

I've always answered your questions completely Alfa. Many others have as well. You choose to ignore the answers, then accuse everyone of not answering your questions. I'll do it again here:

Many reasons. Mostly because of timing and our management's effectiveness in the marketplace.

The world changes daily. You'll have to try and focus your questions a little better.

Mostly because of timing. Others start to exceed our rates soon. But there's so much more than rates. We're already being exceeded in so many ways by others who don't yet have our rates. And of course, SWAPA's scope is simply amazing.

No.

You guessed wrong. Now the question is: Will you acknowledge it.

Carl

Carl Spackler

His analogy is exactly correct as it applies to your actions at DALPA and here on APC.

Of course. But so far, you're only making DAL88's point.

All correct except the claim of many bean counters. Bean counters were all but non-existent in the Apollo program.

The problem solvers...but again you're making DAL88's point as it pertains to your actions Alfa. You were nothing but an attack dog. Your abrasive and arrogant personality was one of the problems that others within DALPA had to solve.

It is this completely unjustified narcissism on your part that must have left you very confused after you were removed. Being an attack dog doesn't help anyone other than an MEC chairman who wanted you in that role.

You would have been the boat anchor Alfa and you wouldn't have lasted a day in Apollo. Based on your actions leading to C2012, you would have fought against Apollo because we just can't get too far ahead of the Russians. And in any case, the RLA (Rocketway Labor Act) is stacked against us and the NMB (National Moonshot Board) would just park us for a decade.

Carl

Splash

I agree with you.

I understand your analogy, and I appreciate leadership traits that are used when executing sound management. If you want to use the military comparison though, then you must acknowledge the key differences. First, the military is not a for-profit enterprise. Military leaders are judged on their ability to "take the hill" or "repel the hoard". To do that, they need to motivate individuals to put themselves in grave physical danger. Second, the military isn't subject to the same reward system we expect in the private sector. Successfully "taking the hill" doesn't result in the lieutenants or sergeants expecting large pay increases for their rank. Third, you and I didn't sign on to "serve Delta". We signed on to make money. I think the differences in worker motivation and expectations diminishes the military analogy quite a bit.

Let me put it this way: If your executives were all arrogant jerks, but you made twice as much money, would you complain about their lack of leadership?

Lee Moak's strategy and achievements were ratified by a clear majority of the pilot group on at least three occasions. To ignore that type of validation is risky unless you're suggesting the pilot group is stupid or easily maneuvered. I don't think we are. I think pilots are smart enough, and independent enough, to vote No on something they don't like.

alfaromeo

We could go around and around like this forever, with no results. DALPA has a mission statement and by following those objectives, we actually have been restoring the profession while others are following the trail we have blazed. Once again, your view is that all the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo 1-10 missions were failures because they didn't get to the moon. My view is that by following a disciplined approach you reach your goals step by step. Once again, look at the chart below and tell me who exactly was single handedly restoring the profession for half a decade. The rest of the world is playing catchup now. If we are smart we will continue to set the pace. If we are dumb, we will overreach and then sit in the penalty box. At this point I care little about which choice is made. Perhaps we have to touch the stove like everyone else to see how hot it is.

DAL 88 Driver

Easy. NOBODY has. (So nice of you to keep throwing me softballs! )

Current 767 Captain rate: $219.62

2004 767 Captain rate adjusted for inflation: $335.92

We're barely into orbit and light years away from anything like going to the moon! You just don't get it. DALPA is Mercury and Gemini. You don't even have any plans for a Saturn V, Apollo spacecraft, and a lunar module. And why would you? You have no mission statement indicating an intent to go to the moon. Your only apparent objective is to see if you can get into a higher orbit and make a few laps around the earth. If anyone suggests going to the moon, you scoff at the idea, continually citing all kinds of data showing how it has never been done before.

Okay, enough of the moon analogy. Pull your head out of the spreadsheet for a moment, take off the green visor, put your mechanical pencils back into your pocket protector, and LOOK at that rate comparison above.

10 years! That's how long it's been since we took a 32.5% pay cut in a desperate attempt to save our company from bankruptcy. Today, we find our pay rates at a 34.6% pay cut with respect to that buying power. You still want to claim we're "single handedly restoring the profession?"

DAL 88 Driver

Yeah, I would. Because I care about my company and want it to be successful. Poor leadership almost always leads to poor results.

Fortunately, our management exhibits very good leadership traits in many areas. I like our management! I think they are doing a great job overall and I thank my lucky stars we have someone like RA who understands the airline business, has great strategic vision, isn't afraid to think outside the box, and knows how to put together an effective team. Another thing I really like about him is that he seems to understand how much of an asset employees are to the company. That's one of the reasons why I think DALPA needs to push for restoration. Everybody has shortcomings. Delta is wildly profitable and looks to be highly successful going forward. Our management is reaping the rewards of that with significantly increased compensation. Good for them! Yet the pilots are being compensated at a level roughly comparable to where we were after we took massive draconian pay cuts in a desperate, futile attempt to save Delta from bankruptcy.

That's an inconsistency, basic lack of fairness, and yes, an exhibition of poor leadership that any reasonable person should be able to see. If our representation (DALPA) acts as if we're basically fine with things the way they are and have no intention of restoration, then our management has every right to assume it's okay and appropriate. We've shot ourselves in the foot by spending the past 10 years acting like we accept bankruptcy as a reset and do not expect restoration!

It's time (actually past time) to set things straight. Is DALPA up to the task? I don't think so, but I sincerely hope I am proven wrong.

Carl Spackler

This is a good object lesson for those pilots who voted yes on C2012. While there were some yes voters that really saw it as a good deal, many other pilots voted for it believing the MEC/management fear campaign meant the alternative would be worse. Regardless of why you voted yes, understand that people like Splash here will state that your yes vote meant you ratified Lee Moak's strategies and achievements.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Of course you care alfaromeo. You're starting the same fear and expectation lowering campaign as you and the rest of the old guard did prior to C2012. It's an exact replay. You will continue to do this right up until the pilot's vote on C2015. Absolutely guaranteed. It's what you do.

Carl

Splash

Fair enough…as long as you acknowledge that many No voters did so to repudiate Lee Moak's strategies and achievements, and that they're in the clear minority of our pilot group.

This thread is about C2015, and to date, ALPA seems to be following a very methodical process to educate us on the history of our contract, and our place within the industry landscape. The pre-survey effort (webinars, lounge visits, PUB's, and emails) looks solid to me. You might disagree. Not a bad thing, as long as you acknowledge that your perspective and opinions are in the minority of our pilot group.

Splash

Good post! I appreciate your thoughtful response. I disagree with your lack of faith in ALPA, but I accept it as a sincere assessment.

Personally, I believe bankruptcy DID represent a "reset", if not of wage rates, than of our shifting of priorities. I don't think any of us like our earnings to be as vulnerable as they proved to be in the period following 9/11, so the shift has been to make our PWA less vulnerable. Like it or not, we have the most to lose when seismic upheavals alter our industry. The pilot groups that weathered the upheavals the best (meaning with the least amount of impact on their earnings), had achieved their gains incrementally…and weren't well above the industry averages. They also tended to be at companies that had used an incremental strategy to grow and develop their networks.

I agree with you that we have good management. The wary part of me that doesn't want to revisit the chaos of the previous decade appreciates their conservative strategy. I appreciate that same strategy from our union.