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Sick leave interpretation?

Old 07-08-2015, 08:30 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by StripAlert View Post
Hi Lurking,

Welcome, and thanks for posting. I think you're on the right track, but you may need to tweak your numbers and assumptions a bit. Your conclusions are valid nonetheless, and I think that explains why so many of us are so fired up about this particular portion of the TA.

Regarding hours per day, 8 is probably not a good average, as it is approaching the maximum (which—only under specific circumstances—is limited by FAR 117 to 9 per day for un-augmented domestic ops). You could use various numbers here, ranging from just under 4 hours per day (the prorated value of a reserve on-call day, depending on the number of days in a particular bid month), to 5.25 (the average daily guarantee), 2.75 (prorated from the FAR 117 limit of 1,000 hours per rolling 365 days), or 3.5 (prorated from the FAR 117 limit of 100 hours per rolling 28 days—technically 672 hours). As you can see, a case can be made for using a wide range of numbers, and a writer may choose depending on the conclusion desired... Gotta love statistics. If I were making your case, I'd probably use 5.25, because it's the minimum that a rotation could be worth per day. Delta and ALPA could probably tell you the actual average daily credit, but I don't think it's published anywhere.

Allowed sick leave usage, as defined by a pilot's sick bank, isn't 100 hours per year. That's the current limit of un-verified sick usage, before the occurrence must be verified. A pilot's sick bank is determined by years of service (longevity), with the majority of the pilot group allotted 240 hours annually, although the most senior have 270. The pilots who are dubiously referred to by Delta and ALPA as "abusers" are likely using far more than 100 hours per year on a consistent basis.

However, the assertion by the "there are abusers" crowd isn't that 20% of the pilots are using 50% of their allotted hours. Rather, it's that 20% of the pilots are using 50% of the sick leave taken by the entire pilot group as a whole. Just want to clear that up. I don't personally believe that this indicates sick leave "abuse." Every year, there are pilots who have serious injuries or illnesses, and who totally exhaust their annual sick leave allotment before going on disability.

If you look at the language in Section 14 of the TA, you'll see that non-flying days are counted as sick days only if they lie between two or more rotations that were also counted as sick days for the same illness, and, even in that case, only for the medical release thresholds, and not for the verification thresholds. (Another big problem with sick leave in this TA is that even a lawyer can't understand what the rules actually are. It's overly-complex.)

Notwithstanding the foregoing (I can't tell you how long I've waited for an attorney to turn up here, so I could write that), the issue is that there aren't actually sick leave abusers. If there were, and if the company could prove it, DALPA would put pressure on those pilots to knock it off, and, failing that, Delta could terminate them. Problem is, aside from a few that have been disciplined, Delta is unable to actually prove any sick leave "abuse."

Instead, what they are calling "abuse" is actually "increased use" of contractual sick leave benefits. For the reasons you've already identified, there are valid explanations for why this may have gone up since Contract 2012. In addition, C2012 removed a provision where a pilot would only be paid 75% of his hourly rate after crossing a rolling three-year sick leave usage threshold, which has probably resulted in less guys flying sick, rather than more staying home healthy, as the company and DALPA would have us believe.

In other words, the provisions of TA 2015 are designed to make legitimate sick leave use more onerous, for the sole purpose of reducing sick leave use. Not abuse, but use. It's a thinly-veiled attempt to control costs and mitigate a manning problem (of their own making) by pressuring pilots to come to work when they're only "a little sick" because it would involve both non-trivial effort and expense to verify a minor illness.

Currently, a pilot who is, say, in a car accident and spends 12 days in the hospital, missing 2-3 trips, can voluntarily verify that illness or injury, and not have it count against his 100 un-verified hours. Under the new TA, that verification is neither required nor permitted until the pilot exceeds 14 missed work days in a rolling year, meaning that in six months, when that pilot comes down with a cold or other minor illness and calls in sick for a 3-day trip, he'll have to see a doctor (at his own expense) to verify an illness that could've easily been treated with over-the-counter meds.

This doesn't even touch on the topic of the medical records release provisions, which raise significant privacy and health data bleed concerns (think personal physician to employer to FAA) that should never happen without the pilot's consent.
Thank you everyone for the responses they have helped a lot. I have the redlined TA a friend emailed it to me but it so I have read and even offered to pay a friend who does Management contract negotiations his hourly rate to review it and he said NO. I have done some contract negotiations for Management but that was years ago.

As for the bold above

1. Statistics -- We call it Lawyer math just make something up
2. (Another big problem with sick leave in this TA is that even a lawyer can't understand what the rules actually are. It's overly-complex.) - I think there is a lot of context that I am missing as I am new to this game however notwithstanding the foregoing if you must rely on context history and SOP to interpret the TA then you run the risk of having a contract that becomes so vague (especially if SOP is applied differently at different bases) that it is unenforceable against either side and you will be in litigation.
3. Notwithstanding the foregoing - Glad I can be of service
4. This doesn't even touch on the topic of the medical records release provisions, which raise significant privacy and health data bleed concerns (think personal physician to employer to FAA) that should never happen without the pilot's consent -- Since you brought this up and I have already opened my big mouth once
G. Medical Release Requirement
A 1. The DHS or his designee may request further information from a pilot who is

required to verify regarding his sickness or may require a pilot to provide a medical

release when:

This should scare the crap out of the pilots. I can't find anywhere that his designee can not be a contract entity. I have seen plenty of posts that say it wont be the FA company or Dr SoSo is great but to me this is lawyering 101 this gives the company full authority to say it won't be so and so or we wont contract it out but does not limit them in any way shape or form for this to pass on Friday and them to say on Monday we did a cost analysis and we are contracting this out. Trust but verify and the only way you can verify in a contract is by actual language in the contract. Most states have what is called the four corners doctrine the agreement must be within the four corners of the agreement or it can not be considered by the Court. So if Delta put in an official memo they will not contract this out then they do you would not have a breech of contract complaint or a violation for the NMB you might have a fraudulent inducement complaint but not a strong one unless you can get the voting results by name and then have enough people who voted yes say this alone would have caused them to vote no but they relied on the company's memo saying they would not do this which is a seemingly insurmountable burden the same would stand if you wanted to complain to the NMB that the Company interfered with the vote.

Ok I will crawl back in my little hole now.

Last edited by Lurking; 07-08-2015 at 08:32 AM. Reason: missed a word
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:06 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by BobZ View Post
All of you are buying into the argument using earned sick leave is abuse.

And the reason you are doing so is because the use of sick leave by a pilot triggers cascading scheduling problems because of chronic understaffing by the company.

And instead of arriving at the obvious and appropriate solution..... which is to expect the company to staff adequately.....you are looking to render ineffective the only economic leverage (GS) we have to compel the company to properly staff.

I am not. But that does not mean because it is earned or contractual it cannot be abused. I imagine that with over 12,000 Pilots sick leave has been abused.

I don't think it is a big problem, and punishing the whole Pilot group for the alleged actions of a small group is a non-stater with me.

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Old 07-08-2015, 09:14 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
I am not. But that does not mean because it is earned or contractual it cannot be abused. I imagine that with over 12,000 Pilots sick leave has been abused.

I don't think it is a big problem, and punishing the whole Pilot group for the alleged actions of a small group is a non-stater with me.

Scoop
Bingo. And punitive it can be with the TA.

Smithers screwed up! All the rest of you drop and give me 20.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:24 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by scambo1 View Post
Bingo. And punitive it can be with the TA.

Smithers screwed up! All the rest of you drop and give me 20.
20! What happened to 50?
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:52 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by BobZ View Post
All of you are buying into the argument using earned sick leave is abuse.
I don't think I said that anywhere. I said using sick leave when not sick is abuse. I support DALPA and the company going after anyone who can be proven to be doing so. I am against changing the sick leave policy (the very one the company insisted we adopt in C2012) to reduce overall sick leave usage to address their staffing problems. I think I've been pretty clear.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:05 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Lurking View Post
I have the redlined TA a friend emailed it to me but it so I have read and even offered to pay a friend who does Management contract negotiations his hourly rate to review it and he said NO.
Strange. I've never met an attorney who would refuse to do anything for their hourly rate.

Originally Posted by Lurking View Post
2. (Another big problem with sick leave in this TA is that even a lawyer can't understand what the rules actually are. It's overly-complex.) - I think there is a lot of context that I am missing as I am new to this game however notwithstanding the foregoing if you must rely on context history and SOP to interpret the TA then you run the risk of having a contract that becomes so vague (especially if SOP is applied differently at different bases) that it is unenforceable against either side and you will be in litigation.
Actually, I think it's the opposite here. There is too much language in the new Section 14, and I don't think ALPA fully understands the ramifications, while I am certain that the company already knows exactly how they are going to get maximum utility out of it.

If we vote this in, we are going to have to expend far more negotiating capital to fix it in the future than we're receiving from these paltry "raises" in this TA.

Originally Posted by Lurking View Post
G. Medical Release Requirement
A 1. The DHS or his designee may request further information from a pilot who is required to verify regarding his sickness or may require a pilot to provide a medical release when:
This should scare the crap out of the pilots. I can't find anywhere that his designee can not be a contract entity. I have seen plenty of posts that say it wont be the FA company or Dr SoSo is great but to me this is lawyering 101 this gives the company full authority to say it won't be so and so or we wont contract it out but does not limit them in any way shape or form for this to pass on Friday and them to say on Monday we did a cost analysis and we are contracting this out. Trust but verify and the only way you can verify in a contract is by actual language in the contract. Most states have what is called the four corners doctrine the agreement must be within the four corners of the agreement or it can not be considered by the Court. So if Delta put in an official memo they will not contract this out then they do you would not have a breech of contract complaint or a violation for the NMB you might have a fraudulent inducement complaint but not a strong one unless you can get the voting results by name and then have enough people who voted yes say this alone would have caused them to vote no but they relied on the company's memo saying they would not do this which is a seemingly insurmountable burden the same would stand if you wanted to complain to the NMB that the Company interfered with the vote.
Spot on. Delta already uses a third-party contractor to harass flight attendants into flying sick in lieu of dealing with sick verification. And even the most senior only get around 50 hours of sick leave per year, I believe.

Originally Posted by Lurking View Post
Ok I will crawl back in my little hole now.
Don't do that. We need people like you paying attention. Hopefully we can send this back, and your husband will be off probation and able to vote on the next one.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:21 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Seaslap8 View Post
I am very concerned by the sick leave changes and trying to get a firm grip on it... could you please clarify these concerns, I'm not following this post.
A doctor/third party can verify a fever. They can't verify most headaches. They can verify congestion. They can't verify most stomach aches. They can verify a sprained ankle, but usually can't verify a pinched nerve in your neck (unless you pay for an MRI out of pocket I guess, and even then it might not capture it).

So if you call in sick, you dam better make sure its for something a third party can verify with hard metrics. Otherwise you will either have to violate the law and fly sick or risk your job by calling in sick for something that isn't third party verifiable. And if you are mentally distraught over something at home, you better run to a psychologist and get diagnosed with a debilitating condition (depression, etc) and put that on your record for life, and deal with that, in this job, for the rest of your career, just to get paid for that 3 day.

Then we get to the whole "records check" nonsense. In almost (but not all) cases, if you get to a records check, you already by definition have already had to verify. So why do they need the records check in those cases?

If you have an upset stomach, headache, pinched nerve, nausea, obscure hormonal imbalance, etc that by definition can't be verified, then not only is is unverified, but, also by definition there will be no records to check during the records check.

So then what?
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:26 AM
  #48  
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The first time that I am truly out sick and don't get paid, I will lose a lot of Delta culture points that have been accrued post merger.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:31 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Whereisalpa View Post
The first time that I am truly out sick and don't get paid, I will lose a lot of Delta culture points that have been accrued post merger.
Hopefully losing pay is all that happens.

All this verification/records check harassment is supposedly to stop "abusers" right? So if you don't get paid, it will be because you are found to have been abusing it. Will there be dicipline for abusers? How much dicipline? Can a rep defend you (successfully) when you have already been adjudicated as guilty by definition of the very policy that the union agreed to?
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:54 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Whereisalpa View Post
The first time that I am truly out sick and don't get paid, I will lose a lot of Delta culture points that have been accrued post merger.
fwiw they lost the culture points already with us new hires. most of us have not been very vocal, but I can tell you the Kool-Aid wore off pretty quickly. Disappointed is an understatement. But I cant say Im surprised. Ok I'll be quiet and go work on getting us that JD Power award now so we can help our management get their hard-earned bonuses.
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