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-   -   incentive based pay raises. (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/89318-incentive-based-pay-raises.html)

GenX 07-11-2015 07:06 AM

incentive based pay raises.
 
After thinking about the sick time and previously talking about using the retirement cycle to change things in a big way I'm really starting to think we could create many incentive based pay raises.

How about seat lock pay raises. Every year beyond 2 years a pilot gets a 5000 incentive per year to stay in the seat. If this stops 2000 pilots from changing seats it's 10,000,000 instead of 2000 times 20,000 per seat change to train someone costing the company 40,000,000( i don't know the actual numbers). Less pilots in training would be productivity gains as well. This would eliminate to small changes like md88 to a320.

Many ways to get raises if we find a few incentives. again a win-win.

I'm sure there are a few more areas we could find incentive base raises with productivity for the company.

This would be a much better approach than selling scope, QOL, seniority, and SL.

Just ideas, trying to think out of the box.

BenderRodriguez 07-11-2015 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenX (Post 1927032)
After thinking about the sick time and previously talking about using the retirement cycle to change things in a big way I'm really starting to think we could create many incentive based pay raises.

How about seat lock pay raises. Every year beyond 2 years a pilot gets a 5000 incentive per year to stay in the seat. If this stops 2000 pilots from changing seats it's 10,000,000 instead of 2000 times 20,000 per seat change to train someone costing the company 40,000,000( i don't know the actual numbers). Less pilots in training would be productivity gains as well. This would eliminate to small changes like md88 to a320.

Many ways to get raises if we find a few incentives. again a win-win.

I'm sure there are a few more areas we could find incentive base raises with productivity for the company.

This would be a much better approach than selling scope, QOL, seniority, and SL.

Just ideas, trying to think out of the box.

Interesting.

GenX 07-11-2015 07:41 AM

Sticking with retirement cycle we could add a few more items for ideas/debate.

1. sell back half the vacation as we did in the past.
2. give incentives to reserves that on under manned reserves days they can add two x days for 5 hours per day.

Again, I'm just throwing out more ideas that put us in charge of our QOL balanced against pay raises while creating productivity. Some years/months one may want to work more than other years/months not so much. Having choice to balance QOL vs pay incentives may be the way to go. This works for QOL life pilots vs Money driven pilots. So in the end have an initial raise that everybody receives then we as individuals can add to it if we choose the incentives we want or choose QOL instead.

BenderRodriguez 07-11-2015 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenX (Post 1927071)
Sticking with retirement cycle we could add a few more items for ideas/debate.

1. sell back half the vacation as we did in the past.
2. give incentives to reserves that on under manned reserves days they can add two x days for 5 hours per day.

Again, I'm just throwing out more ideas that put us in charge of our QOL balanced against pay raises while creating productivity. Some years/months one may want to work more than other years/months not so much. Having choice to balance QOL vs pay incentives may be the way to go. This works for QOL life pilots vs Money driven pilots. So in the end have an initial raise that everybody receives then we as individuals can add to if we choose the incentives we want or choose QOL instead.

Vacation sellback was not popular because it is perceived as a jobs issue. Why should an X day cost you 5 hours when a work day is only worth half that (more or less)?

UGBSM 07-11-2015 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez (Post 1927074)
Vacation sellback was not popular because it is perceived as a jobs issue. Why should an X day cost you 5 hours when a work day is only worth half that (more or less)?

Vacation sellback is a jobs issue. There is no doubt about that. And it does incentivize more productivity.

But its more than that. Ultimately, you can argue it's a fatigue issue. Which ultimately is a safety issue. The whole point of vacation is to relax, rejuvenate, recharge, rest, etc... Humans need that. And we need more of that as you get older.

Granted, everybody is different. Some need more rest than others. But getting rid of vacation sellback was also an effort to protect all of us from those goofballs who fly sick and tired no matter what for the almighty $$.

BobZ 07-11-2015 07:55 AM

vacation sell back was primarily a pension spiking tool.

that it had some financial benefit to the less junior and cost jobs at the bottom end was addressed with excuses at the senior levels like "I couldn't care less"......

BenderRodriguez 07-11-2015 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UGBSM (Post 1927081)
Vacation sellback is a jobs issue. There is no doubt about that. And it does incentivize more productivity.

But its more than that. Ultimately, you can argue it's a fatigue issue. Which ultimately is a safety issue. The whole point of vacation is to relax, rejuvenate, recharge, rest, etc... Humans need that. And we need more of that as you get older.

Granted, everybody is different. Some need more rest than others. But getting rid of vacation sellback was also an effort to protect all of us from those goofballs who fly sick and tired no matter what for the almighty $$.

That's true. I wasn't defending sellback at all. Back in those days however, international pilots would fly those 12 day Berlin trips and then bid vacation on the off days, so they weren't using their vacation for the reasons you state either. In essence, they still sold them back. And I find that I am enjoying more time off as well these days, except during the summer when air conditioned airplanes are a nice escape from Florida heat.

Packrat 07-11-2015 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobZ (Post 1927084)
vacation sell back was primarily a pension spiking tool. ...

Exactly correct. It spikes it so much it could encourage more guys to leave early. Assuming you have an A plan, that is.

GenX 07-11-2015 08:15 AM

On vacation correct, however times were always lean and numbers were tight as far as staffing. More numbers more movement. With the retirements coming up we can create productive and movement at the same time. I'm not sure if vacation sell back would look as bad now when we will start moving up fast. However, it would be a way to help balance productivity and create gains pay.

In anyway shape or form productivity means less pilots. Selling vacation beats selling scope or SL. Heck, add the 7th week, half would sell it back as pay. This is all predicated on us helping the company at all on productivity. Of course those who are opposed to any change what so ever any idea would sound bad. That being said, with the retirements for all airlines they probably do need productivity gains. I'm trying to think of ways to leverage that productivity into money and choices and productivity gains. In other words, finding the right balance for the right decade.

As far as reserve or any ideas, I wouldn't know the exact numbers to be used it was just a number I grabbed. Seemed to me if one would do extra should get paid extra. That being said, any numbers or ideas can be debated. My suggestions were more about the idea rather than the actual numbers.

I'm sure many ideas could be good or bad. I'm more or less trying to paint the big picture of what we can do to create choices to keep QOL pilots happy vs Pay driven along with getting pay raises for everyone and incentives for productivity for those who want to participate for increased pay. It could be a win-win for different types of pilots as well as a win for the company. The up and coming decade give us different options than the past.

At least if the discussion gets started we may find things that were unaccepted in the past would be accepted now. Vacation sell back was a jobs thing in the past. The pilots wanted trips touching and no sell back to create even more jobs as it was the only way to create movement. PBS never let trips touching happen so it was a worthless idea other than no sell back.

Like I said though it may be a good thing in the next decade to increase both pay, choices, and productivity. These are just some ideas, hopefully other will have more ideas.

BobZ 07-11-2015 08:26 AM

If you suggest vacation sell back....to address the jobs aspect while retaining the economic offset....offering a selective 'buy back' to the company may be acceptable to the group.

Anyone reading this ta should arrive at the conclusion staffing is the big issue.

Okay...first to keep in mind is staffing problems ARE NOT permanent condition...so the 'solutions' should not be installed in our pwa as permanent concessions.

Anything done in the pwa to offer relief in addressing the current staffing issues should be limited, and have sunset language attached.

You want to put vacation buy back on the table? Okay....allow the company to buy back vacation weeks in the categories where the staffing issues are critical. That way the job count should not be negatively impacted, as the buy back is only occurring in those categories where staffing is short....

and the presumption is the company would be hiring to fill those shortages.

We make a huge mistake when we install permanent changes to our pwa for temporary problems.


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