Things getting testy at Air France..
 

So what else is new right?? They've always had their labor issues, strikes, slowdowns, etc, but thought this was pretty funny...imagine if that happened here.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayinthesky/2015/10/05/air-france-execs-forced-to-flee-after-union-protesters-storm-hq-meeting/73367714/

Wow. And we are considered the unreasonable ones turning down a concession laden TA. The zone of reasonableness seems to be subjective depending on your point of view.

So is this also a reason for the proposed change from EASK's to Block Hours in the concessionary TA? Don't know exactly how this all plays out but maybe RA and Co. saw this downscale coming and wanted to prepare... to change the JV language from EASK's to block hours. Anyone want to tackle this conspiracy?

Tail

You do realize had we switched to block hours a scale down at Air France would have impacted us less than EASK's right?

Until you change the metric again and reset the compliance number. Pilot block hours or aircraft block hours? They still fly more 3 and 4 man trips with larger gauge equipment. If we exceed the tops side are you concerned? We just announced more Rome out of MSP.

The up-gauging of the US side and the down-gauging of the EU side was well publicized in public statements and fleet plans published by the partner airlines. I provided links to the articles at the time.

While correct on the trend, the rate and quantity of change is difficult to predict since there are so many variables which affect execution on the EU side.

Block Hours should not be confused with Pilot Block Hours.

The part of the puzzle which may not be obvious from our side of the Atlantic is the rapid and aggressive expansion of Ryanair and other EU LCC. While the ME3 are eating their lunch on premium transoceanic, the LCC are making a "dog's breakfast" of their feed.

We have to remain alert for the one market they have that still sort-of functions ... the US.

Buck, what if as someone said here earlier the AF down gauge is just to those markets they're struggling against the ME3 and they still take the heavies to Merica?

There is no need to change anything if AF downsizes. Delta has minimum amounts of flying based on our contract. There is no maximum. AF could cut half their flying over the Atlantic......a Delta would not have to cut one flight.

Which is precisely what Air France says it's planning to do. No downsizing to the good ole USA.

Carl

Source? The new plan from AF has them parking the widebodies use on the unprofitable routes. 12 hulls next year.

There was an online article that referenced cuts in Asia, as that is where AF/KLM is losing the most money.

So with the relaxed scope proposal in NA2015, AF/KLM could have pulled the planes from the Asia routes and used them to fly a larger share of the Atlantic market. The concessionary BH conversion and lower percentage of flying would have crushed the Delta pilot group. We dodged a bullet on the proposed section 1.

More likely those are the airframes AF is parking.

That is exactly right.

Carl

That is the case now because they'd get further out of balance with our current JV requirements if they tried to add those heavies to the US market instead of parking them. Had we voted to change back to block hours, AF/KLM could have their big iron on those US routes because they are profitable, while we shrank to small gauge (lower paying) aircraft.

As Gunfighter said, we dodged a bullet that the Donatelli regime shot at us.

Carl

Another reason why esk's would've hurt us. Not trying to play the conspiracy theorist, but these changes at Air France were not decided overnight. With Delta telling us there is no more $$ for our contract then subsequently investing into GOL, China Eastern, almost SkyMark, one has say hmmmnnnnn...

Serious question...At this point, why would anyone not be a conspiracy theorist?

My name isn't Polyanna.
I was born on a day. But, that day didn't begin with yester.

If it isn't clear that the union, to this point, has worked for the company, one has not been paying attention.

It is a very fair question, why we have a union, when it is clear that we are paying dues for the honor of being crowd controlled.

So, feel free to conspiracy theorize.

It's been painfully obvious to most of us that one of the driving factors for an early signing were the deals that management, and the union for that matter, had in place outside of the Delta pilot group. For them to tell us there is nothing more on the table, when every other employee group at delta is making more now than after bankruptcy, the investment in foreign carriers, and the changes they wanted to the JV language, it's needless to say the gloves are off and my backpack has been placed into permanent storage. Isn't this similar to Pelosi saying "we need to sign the bill to see what's in it"? I'm glad we called their bluff...

So AF is lying when they say they are parking those airframes?

What changes at AF? Parking 10% of their widebody fleet in addition to parking all their 747's?

Sailing is AF pulling down any of it's flying to the US?

The TA is dead, why keep discussing sick leave and JV? Big question, is there more money left on the table, that's the only thing that matters. Take Em just did a run down of the money spent post TA vote down.

Sailing, care to address, is there money left on the table. The TA is dead along with those tentatively agreed to sections.

First words out of MD's mouth, no more money left on the table. Dumb.

Money left on the table is up to RA. He feels he offered a TA that put Delta's overall pilot costs well above the competition. The company can of course afford more. They can afford a lot more.
Wall Street and the BOD however would cruicify RA if he jumped his costs that far above the competition. The question becomes how do you force RA and the company to pay a large premium over other airlines for pilots. We have been told on the forums the leverage we had but so far none of it actually seems to exist.
The RLA and anti labor judges handcuff us. Anyone with two touching brain cells can read and understand the positions the NMB is taking. They are about as far from labor friendly as you can get. No one on here has shown me a method to overcome that and put more money in my pocket then the path we have taken working with the company.

The performance of the airline is due to the pilots leaning forward and making it happen every day. When morale drops so will the stellar performance. This won't be an organized job action just the natural tendency of the disenfranchised. Show up, minimal effort, collect the check, go home, repeat... J.D. Power couldn't be further away than it is now. The next 11 months will need to go flawlessly even be in the running.

"Hello, welcome to Mc Donald's may I help you?" can be said as a rote mono tone barely intelligible utterance without eye contact while texting on a phone or with their full attention, a smile and a willingness to listen to get the order right the first time, not having to ask 3 times. See the difference? Either way the job gets done but the customer service makes the difference.

The increase in pilot compensation was "unlocked" with concessions. That's the problem.

Wow....that's really weird because my union (that one in Herndon....you know, ALPA) told me to support Obama because he was "labor friendly" and would be on our side. How is it possible that our "labor friendly" President, among his numerous Artcle II powers, has appointed such a labor-unfriendly NMB after almost 7 years in office?

Probably....It gives good food for defeatists in other parts of their alliance.

Not at all. They are being parked.

Because we voted no to POS15, we will continue to fly our share of Atlantic EASKs. Under a BH plan, AF could have flown more 380 and 747 to JFK, while we continued flying a 757 from PIT and PHL to CDG.

SCOPE matters for scenarios exactly like this. Can it be any more clear? Do you finally get it? How many more ways does it have to be explained before 35% of the pilot group finally realizes that SCOPE matters. It is S E C T I O N ONE for a reason.

Perhaps you should do a little research on that statement. ALPA never endorsed Obama.

Omar

The ALF-CIO did. Who was our ALF-CIO delegate again?

Maybe not with a formal endorsement but they (and my local reps) sure touted Obama over McCain for just that reason - NMB appointments (as well as Donutyelli's apocolyptic PEB).

Another article on AF.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/could-...--finance.html