UAL Deal Effect On 3B4
 

Now that United and American have rates higher than ours, how will that play out?

New UAL 757A $245 vs Delta $226.

It looks like 3.B.4 won't be triggered because the raise happens 1/1/16...if it happened 12/1/15 we would get it

And going forward?

Can only be good news.

AA 757A $242

Then our pay raises will be the equivalent of whatever the non-contracts get...

They could give the non contracts a "bonus" and that would not trigger jack for the pilots.

Care to explain where you got your numbers.. as there has been NOTHING put out official with regards to our (UAL) Contract extension?

Just a rumor of 16% for first year.. but unknown if that is on top of the scheduled 3% as of 1 Jan 16, or 13% + the scheduled 3%, or if it's 16% as of 1 Dec 15... etc. {And that's IF the rumors are true}

Amazing how people are already posting opinions of something that still doesn't even exist.
oh, and our current 2016 payrate for 757-2 Capt, 12th yr =
$217.52
x 16% = (+34.80)
New Rate would be $252.32!

However, these are still rumors and alot more info needs to come out besides payrates for me to vote YES.

Always
Motch

You're absolutely correct, Horrido. I think he was just crunching numbers based on the rumor. $217.52 X 13%= $245.80.

Any rumor about work rule concessions to get that raise? Just curious. I haven't been following the happenings at UAL and had no idea you guys were even negotiating. This is a mid contract bump right? Management must want something if they're willing to give you guys a nice bump like that.

I've heard that before. It would be an act of war.

Not gonna happen.

I like your math motch better.

If the UAL 13% number is correct, then that is the value of the raise being circumvented by the Dec. 1 date for the non-con raise. If it were still Apr. 1 then 13% is less than 14.5% and that would apply. Remember you are the best pilots in the industry and should be paid... Yada, yada...

Now we bank raises equal too the non-cons for years to come under C2012, without concessions!

They gave them TWO raises in one year to get around our contract. I would not count out the "bonus" thing in the future.

I should prob retake the survey. Need to put higher raises in there. And let me say, mine were much higher than pos15 to start with. And no concessions.

Giving our non-contract people their raise on Dec 1st is already an act of war.

Management is basically poking a stick in our eye.

They better not send out any more memos telling us how great we are and how much they appreciate our operational excellence.

I think a lot of guys are going to be dropping their backpacks on Jan 1st.

PS- I'll be interested to see whether ALPA decides to challenge this as a violation of RLA status quo.
December raises are clearly a break from many years of "past practice". Its just as clear that they're only doing it to circumvent our contract.
We might have a strong case.

IF ALPA were to challenge this, they would sign a settlement agreement for pennies on the dollar just like they did for three years of international scope violation.

I'm told the MEC passed a resolution to have the administration investigate whether management is violating the status quo with these December raises.
That's a promising sign.

Hopefully they will get some opinions other than ALPA National lawyers.
If they listen to ALPA National we are screwed.

For Delta's sake, I hope the fuelers, caterering and others who need our prompting to do their job just get it done on there own. At D +3 when ops enquires why you haven't pushed yet, I'm sure they'll love to find out you're still waiting on fuel. The potential exists for an operational meltdown.

Actually it has been confirmed. It is 13% on current rates, plus 3% 1/1/16. This is about 16.4% above current rates. 3% 1/2017 and 2% 1/2018. It also has a Delta me too clause for rates until 2018.

The MEC passed a watered-down version.

The original directed that a grievance be filed. Period.

The version that passed directed an investigation and a grievance "if appropriate."

With the MEC still controlled by Moakists (who are now trying to get management jobs since their ALPA prospects are shot), I'm guessing they won't find a grievance to be "appropriate."

As an aside, it's my understanding that several of the outgoing reps were neck deep up RA's butt looking for a new sugar daddy when he spoke at the meeting. Nestor, of course, was no doubt fully engaged.

And why was RA there? What was he talking about? Enough listening to that guy. It's time for action.

If the United CEO was smart he would have the first raise effective on 1 Dec 15 that way it forces Delta into a 3B4 review for the pilots and doesn't have a cost disadvantage when it comes to pilot pay. That is RA and managements big deal here right? They don't want us to get out of line with the industry in regards to pay.

I just emailed my reps about this strategy and I suggest everyone do the same. While I'm not 100% sure this strategy would work, time is of the essence. It's worth looking into.

That would violate the secret protocols of Conquistadores del Cielo, and bring down scoffs and scorn upon him at their next conclave. :p

We might have a good shot at winning.
Departures from long established "past practice" is one of the things that usually is found to violate status quo.
Same thing goes for management's recent trick of putting line check airmen on "office duty" for the month and then assigning line checks and IOEs from open time in order to avoid buying off first officers.

We should challenge both of those changes to the status quo.

We shouldn't get our knickers in a twist about all of this. While we in the "Delta Family", long term employees, know what the family really is, the public's perception IS different and important.

Our management takes great stock in JD Power, and all the awards scribbled on the side of our airplanes. We have the ultimate the control of that perception. At some point in time, we'll make that control well known if necessary.

Until then, enjoy a better contract than the TA, the profit sharing checks and build unity.

Is this rumor or verified? I could see them putting some LCA's on office duty for admin tasks but not too many.

I recently finished IOE and TOE. Every LCA I flew with was on reserve.

What base and equipment?

Scoop

I disagree. It's time to play hard ball and management is not our friend. Once our reps get that through their skull we will start to do a lot better in negotiations.

It's contract time...we should not be signing LOAs and we should make a stink out of the above situation. It's clear managements timing on the non cons raise was to screw with us and out of the me too clause. We should file a grievance.

WHERE is this confirmed?

I think I must be missing something here, but how does giving a raise to non-contract employees allow the company to circumnavigate 3B4?

The way I understand it.....The upcoming raise is for our non-contract employees will inversely reduce the profit sharing payout for the pilots as the other groups will now have a larger piece and the timing of the raise in December won't trigger 3B4 this year, but how does a bonus affect us from coming up to new industry standard rates (AMR/UA) in the next year?

Is it a one or another scenario?
Basically if a set percentage raise threshold for our own non-contract employee groups is triggered, then a reassessment of pilot compensation occurs?
OR
Once industry standard rates rise at other legacy carriers, does 3B4 trigger a reassessment of pilot compensation?



Essentially, will our rate reset from our non-contract employee groups supersede a rate reset from industry standard rates?

LCA's are bidding reserve and the planners are buying trips for them. Primo trips too. I think they can make more money flying on their X days as well. Can't confirm that. In any event, management is changing the way their management pilots are bidding.

Change in the status quo?

I'm NYC 7ER. The LCAs I flew with were based in ATL, SEA, and NYC.

No concessions there were 5 items discussed:

1. Pay rumored to be 16% but not sure how.

2. Fatigue Risk Management System (FRMS) no details given but this is what the company wanted and needed and is what drove this early negotiation. So I assume we made the process to get waivers easier.

3. LOA 25 - This restricted Recalls to a lesser longevity for pay. Rumor it has been rescinded and recalls will be made whole.

4. MOU 22 - add pay for extending up to 117 max. We had this company couldn't play by the rules so we rescinded it. Now its back and is hard language. Automatic add pay once you are preferred an extension.

5. Reserve assignment changes - It is not certain whether this was asked for by the company or ALPA. It is a weak section riddled with holes that need to be plugged. Rumor has it no changes were negotiated.

All of this was supposed to trigger an order for 100 Seat Aircraft. Company needs one on property to add more 76 seaters. Rumor is there was no agreement reached so scope stays the same.

Check,

I've noticed a "change" in LCA awarded trips also. Haven't been able to say with 100% certainty yet what the company is doing, but they most definitely have changed the method in which they assign LCA to OE/TOE trips who are paired with regular line-holding FO's.

Something "fishy" is going on with the N/A2015 "wants" of the company and feel like while we're watching the left-hand, the company is giving us a "rope-a-dope" with their right! :eek:

LCA's on "office duty" were doing non-flying admin stuff like ASAP/FCR review...not flying OEs