I don't quite think that asking the reason you are refusing a extension is intimidation. All I have ever had is a simple phone call asking why. Once a follow up from the CP's office. Paid every time.

File the reroute grievance!! Even if you don't understand it, file it.

Really. I'm going to accept the assumption that the people working for the "company" are smart, intelligent people. What reasons other than fatigue or reaching a point where one is unfit for duty would there be for not extending a 12+ hour duty day?

that is some serious knowledge.

Ehhhh.....just a marginal ability to read the PWA.

Most guys don't even do that. They just assume it says something because they were told it does by someone else. Same with TAs, memos, and bulletins.

"We didn't think they'd do that".........

It's actually printed somewhere?

The problem with reading the contract is that you can find a paragraph describing exactly your situation, but it turns out to have been superseded by a LOA/MOU, or an exception, etc. Agree, there's a lot of bad gouge spouted by the sea lawyers. It's complicated.

Even with a LOA/MOU at least one can find a written reference. It is the "past practices" or "accepted interpretation" which aren't written that torque me, especially when the language of the PWA is unambiguous.

In my opinion, having the company and the chief pilot questioning you is intimidation.

And what, exactly, are you afraid of?

I had a 4F1R once and couldn't find what the R meant. I found it in my PAS statement for the month and the R meant the rotation was removed for company connivence or some such wording, not reroute.

Just so you know, I don't feed trolls.

Can I just cite the research that advised against the extension? Here's my statement:

Legal or not researchers advised against providing an extension option because of the proven degradation of performance beyond 12 hours. I am acting in the interest of safety. The ability to self evaluate also degrades beyond 12 hours.

Food for thought (not just trolls)

In a variety of studies, fatigued individuals consistently underreported how tired they really were, as measured by physiologic parameters. A tired individual truly does not realize the extent of actual impairment. No degree of experience, motivation, medication, coffee, or will power can overcome fatigue.

Direct quote from the FAA.

Yup...that was probably the case. But MikeF16 had added legs, not a removal so it just indicated the reroute to his rotation.

Cheers....

It's the same as letting the guy drinking decide if he's drunk too much to drive.

We're being asked to decide right now how we think we would feel 10 hours from now (I'm referring to international). Just happened to me last week. Add on top of that 117 telling me I'm acclimated to a time zone 9 zones from reality just because I had a 30 hour layover.

And the implied threat of docking your pay during the inquisition concerning the refusal of an extension is intimidation, whether it affects your decision or not. The intent is to intimidate you.

We should have to request the extension, rather than have to jump through all the hoops to refuse it.

shortage crunch? I can point you to at least 3800 guys who would be in class tomorrow who already fly delta passengers (DL Connect). But apparently aren't "Delta Material"

Well they need to make all this easier for normal people to figure out!! Thanks for the correction, it all gives me a headache.

Even if they all are "Delta Material," Delta can't train them quickly enough to alleviate the current shortages, compounded by future retirements. We are seriously short in several categories.

Afraid of trolls?


Why would anyone feel intimidated when you make a decision based on the FAR?

You should report for work rested to complete the entire FDP, including an extension. You report fit for duty. Period.

If at any time during that FDP, including an extension, you determine that you are not fit for duty, you must remove yourself and report that you are unfit for duty to your carrier. Period.

Your decision to accept an extension comes at the time that the extension is needed, not when you report for duty. Sometimes you are fit for duty to complete an extension and sometimes you are not. For that matter, sometimes you are unable to complete the scheduled FDP because you become unfit for duty due to circumstances that occur during the FDP.

Your call ends your FDP. You need to be put into rest so that you will be able to report fit for duty for your next FDP.

Any series of questions from anyone should not change the fact that you have determined that you are/were unfit for duty at that point in the FDP.

The CEO could call to ask you and it doesn’t change the fact that you determined you were unfit for duty, thus your FDP was ended.

You should not be fearful of making a decision regarding whether you are fit for duty.

You are contradicting yourself in this post. First you say "You should report for work rested to complete the entire FDP, including an extension. You report fit for duty. Period." Then you say "Your decision to accept an extension comes at the time that the extension is needed, not when you report for duty. Sometimes you are fit for duty to complete an extension and sometimes you are not. For that matter, sometimes you are unable to complete the scheduled FDP because you become unfit for duty due to circumstances that occur during the FDP."

You cannot have it both ways.

Denny

Not having it both ways, Denny, and not intended to be confusing or contradictory. Allow me to try again:

At report, a pilot is either fit for duty or not. If not, the pilot should not begin the FDP.
Don’t let the “. . . including an extension.” cloud the fit for duty question at the beginning of a FDP. The extension does not become an issue until the point in time during the FDP that the extension is needed, and the determination of fit for duty for that extension would also occur at that time.

Once a FDP begins, circumstances could occur that change a pilot’s assessment as to whether one is fit for duty or not. Example, a pilot begins a FDP that is scheduled for five legs. After leg two, the pilot is notified of a member in his/her family being involved in a serious automobile accident. Such an occurrence, in the midst of an operating FDP, could render a pilot unfit for duty.

The point being, “fit for duty” is a continuous assessment on the part of the pilot throughout the FDP, whether operating during an extension or not.

Bottom line: You should not be fearful of making a decision regarding whether you are fit for duty.

That was a whole lot of words used to not really say anything... way to go, Chuck.

What Chuckie is saying is politics plays no part in 4th floor decisions.... Yup, that's right......Yessireee...

According to FAA interpretations, the decision to extend should be made at the time the extension is required -- not 12 hours prior. It's supposed to be be an affirmation in real time. I'm not sure how anyone signed off on this "fail operational" extension.

I'm on my phone and don't not have access to the interpretations, but they're googleable.

In that case, we need a "Fit-O-Meter" scan before each flight. That would intercept truly fatigued pilots and also nab lazy louts who are just faking fatigue. While we're at it, let's give 'em an "Attitude-O-Meter" scan as well. :D

Announced today 2016 total hiring numbers are being increased by 220 pilots. Narrow body utilization rates have been increased.

I was just trying to get you to clarify that, when one signs in, one is saying s/he is fit for the scheduled duty period. Fitness for the extension is determined later.

Denny

If I have an 8 hour FDP and 5 hours of flying and due to weather divert and am at 11 hours, then I reported fit for duty and could now be unfit before the max duty period even prior to the extension. You need to report fit for the scheduled duty period not some hypothetical extension.

BTW if the fire alarm sounds at 3am I have not had an uninterrupted 8 hour sleep opportunity.

In the past when this has happened to me and fatigue is an issue, I have told tracking that we are going to the hotel.... I am turning my phone off... After we are rested, I will make whatever calls are necessary... Sometimes you have to be a Capt.

As far as fit for duty... Had a deal in Asia recently where we were not getting enough rest after multiple re-routed long days... Called tracking 13hrs ahead to inform them we were not continuing after landing (So they could recover the next flt... It was the NRT hotel with multiple re-crewing options)... Tracking tried to force us to continue via acars in route with min rest... I said nope... Went to hotel for 24hr needed break, then continued on... Stood my ground with the Chief (who was very understanding with zero push back)... Again, sometimes you have to be a Capt...

P.s. As long as we're in the pointy end, there can be no compromising safety...

P.p.s. We should have SW's wording in our contract: "No CPO involvement for fatigue or fit for duty calls... all pay protected". Period. (They have the same wording for sick calls... )

Agree. What's more difficult is when you're (junior) in the right seat and have to be the captain. I believe I made a mistake accepting the extension on my most recent reroute and will likely act differently in the future.

At the risk of the usual flaming I seem to attract, I'll share my rr in more detail since I think my experience might help other inexperienced FOs in a similar situation. When we got the extra leg I was leaning towards not extending, the captain was very confident in his ability to accept the extension and I allowed him to sway my decision. It started small -- tracking gave us only 20 minutes to turn the plane and ferry it back to ATL to beat the extension clock. It was going to be our 6th leg of the day, we were leaving AVL after midnight, it is mountainous terrain, and we're operating off the taxiway which in DAL's opinion, raises the threat level of the airfield to where it is a captain-only takeoff and landing on a clear bright sunny day on your 1st leg. We had both made a few minor errors on the inbound leg -- nothing safety related, just a few little things that in retrospect I can attribute to being tired.

So then the snowball starts. No, we're not taking the jet we just brought in back to ATL, we're bringing a hangar queen that has been broke for 3 days and tech ops is still working on it. Then there's no plane in sight. Oh, it's at the GA ramp. And it's midnight, nobody to take us there, so time to walk out the airport and then walk to the GA ramp dragging our bags. We get to the plane and now we've got 2 guys from tech ops in our faces who are tired and angry they've been stuck in AVL for the last 3 days and want nothing more than to go home. We handle a few minor MX issues and crank engines, and the air stairs become a distant memory. But wait, where's the FSR? Can't raise anybody on the radio to bring them back. After phone calls back to dispatch and load control, 20 minutes later we get an FSR and depart around 0100 -- well into our extension. We finally blast and as we climb through 10k the captain can't get the AP to engage so it will be hand flown the rest of the way. But wait, what's he doing? He's mashing the approach/land button instead of the autopilot and can't figure out why the AP won't engage. I didn't notice he was hitting the wrong button but out of habit gave it a try myself and of course it worked just fine. Fit for duty?

In retrospect it was probably a poor idea to extend. There was never one smoking gun on the ground that told us that we need to go to the hotel now, just a bunch of little things that kept adding up and we didn't even realize we shouldn't be going. The next day on the van back to the airport, I thought this was something we should debrief with clear minds and expressed my opinion that while we thought it was correct at the time, in retrospect it was a mistake. I brought up all the issues I mentioned here and still the captain was adamant that he was just fine and at the time, there was no reason to not sign the extension. We safely executed the flight, never came close to breaking an FAR or bending metal so maybe he was right and I'm wrong. That said, it's easy to forget that the captain's 51% voting rights go out the window when it's time to decide if you're going to extend. If given a similar scenario in the future, if I'm going to err one way or the other I'd rather be explaining myself to the CP why I didn't go instead of writing a story here why I think I shouldn't have.

I hope you submitted all this on a ASAP. This is probably not the right place to post it.

Couple of important points here from the Fatigue class I attended last year headed by DW (ALPA safety chair).

You can't preemptively not elect to extend. The key time is after you have exceeded your duty day without the extension. I know we're trying to save the day (operation) but you have to look out for yourselves and other pilot in this case.

Second point is the phrase is "I'm/we're not fit to continue". Using "fatigue" brings a whole different level of complexity.

This just came out, found it thanks to Chit Chat:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

Explain to me again how our current procedure is kosher?

Scenario 2:
Your second scenario is as follows. Immediately prior to the beginning of the final scheduled flight segment, the pilot-in-command (PIC) realizes that he will be unable to complete that segment without a 2-hour FDP extension. You ask two questions about this scenario.
Q1: Does the fitness-for-duty affirmation that the PIC signed prior to when he found out about the delay serve as concurrence to an extension?
Subsection 117.l9(a) allows an FDP to be extended up to 2 hours beyond the pertinent FDP limit in response to unforeseen operational circumstances that arise prior to takeoff. This extension is subject to a number of limitations, one of which is that the PIC and the
certificate holder must both concur with the extension.' A document that the PIC signed before he found out about the need for an extension would not be sufficient to concur with the extension because a person cannot concur with something that he or she does not know about. Instead, the PIC must affirmatively concur with the extension.
Q2: For this question, you ask us to assume that the length of the extension in the above scenario is 30 minutes instead of two hours. You ask us whether this changes our analysis in the previous question.
In a recently-issued interpretation the FAA stated that all FDP extensions taken pursuant to § 117.19 require PIC concurrence.4 However, the FAA noted that PIC concurrence
with extensions of30 minutes or less can be accomplished via a fitness-for-duty affirmation. 5
In this case, however, even though the extension would only be 30 minutes, the PIC's
fitness for duty affirmation would be insufficient to concur with the extension because
the affirmation took place before the PIC found out about the need for an extension. This
is because the PIC cannot concur with something that he does not know about. Thus,
even though the PIC's concurrence with extensions of30 minutes or less can be done via
a fitness-for-duty affirmation, an affirmation that takes place prior to when the PIC finds
out about the need for an extension would not be sufficient as a concurrence."

4. Fitness for duty with regard to FDP extensions
For your fourth question, you note that § 117.19 allows a certificate holder to extend an
FDP by up to two hours. You ask whether a flightcrew member must report to an FDP
sufficiently rested to accommodate a possible two-hour FDP extension.
Section 117.5(a) requires a flightcrew member to "report for any flight duty period rested
and prepared to perform his or her assigned duties." (emphasis added). As the
emphasized portion of the§ 117.5(a) regulatory text indicates, the fitness-for-duty
3 Clarification of Flight, Duty, and Rest Requirements, 78 FR 14166, 14169 (Mar. 5, 2013).
2
requirement applies to duties that are assigned, not duties that could be assigned.
Accordingly, until a certificate holder decides that an FDP extension is necessary, a
flightcrew member's fitness-for-duty determination is based on the assumption that the
FDP will not be extended.

Now FO have just as much power to not extend. you are signing the release too! Just say no I am unfit to continue. takes one lesson like above to learn to put your foot down.

United's new contract pays a pretty hefty premium for an FDP extension. I do not support this idea because pilots will see the money and extend when they are actually fatigued. This is a great discussion because a lot of times we are faced with having to cut off our own pay. Case in point, I did not accept an extension causing me to miss my greenslip the next day. I lost out on the pay, but I made the safe call by not endangering the crew or passengers, and I lived to fly another day. Its up to each pilot to assess their fitness for duty and if you feel like the company needs you, dont fret. They can ALWAYS find another crew to fly the airplane. Theyre very good at this.