Says the guy who had to be removed from his position.

So do Brielmann and Bartels see significant opportunities to leverage changes the company needs into changes we need that outweigh any real or perceived negatives?

It is no secret that Bartels was furious about losing the election to Malone, and Brielmann wanted to be MEC Vice Chairman. Schnitzler is reportedly maneuvering for a full time job as well. A successful TA could undermine their career ALPA ambitions. Watch their feet.

Great post! I can see a movie, or at least a book - "Confessions of a yes voter." :D

Seriously though - you are 100% correct we all make mistakes so we might as well learn from them.

One of my biggest mistakes also involves "believing" management, as in LOA 46. Do it once do it right - yeah right. That is the one vote I wish I could get back. But at least I learned a lesson - what management says in negotiations is meaningless - 100% worthless. The only think that matters is contractual language. If it is in the PWA they plan on using it.

Scoop

As far as C66 "juvenile rants", I found their latest message to be in line with Malone's:

"Many of you have contacted us regarding the latest chairman’s letter and the concept that we must help the company with “legitimate operational needs.” You have told us that it is inappropriate to further degrade the Delta pilot contract in the current financial environment. We get it. Let us be clear: whatever fix, relief, give, accommodation, help, quid, or rearranging of the deck chairs that is even being considered on a temporary or voluntary basis will have to be vastly outweighed by the significant, permanent benefits that our pilot group receives in this next contract. We will not be rushed into any deal that won’t pass overwhelmingly."

As far as Bartel's backlash against Malone, I don't see it. I read it as C20 won't entertain any horse trading; gains offset by concessions:

"Certainly, considering all of this, as well as the fact that the Delta pilots haven’t yet returned to the non-inflation adjusted pre-bankruptcy contract parameters and value of more than 12 years ago, we (the C20 reps) aren’t in any particular mood to entertain any “wants” from the company that offset contractual improvements. This is not a “zero sum” environment as we have been told so many times in the past. Any acceptable deal will need to be strongly in the pilot group’s favor regardless of the threats and rhetoric generated by senior management. This attitude is certainly representative of the feedback we’ve received from Council 20 members. Please continue with the emails, texts and letters. We hear you and we will act on your behalf."

IMO that is in line with Malone's message. Any give or concession must be outweighed by SIGNIFICANT gains.

All you have accomplished by propagating the essay from the smartest guy in the room is offered encouragement to management that there is a more compliant party waiting to come back to the table.

And in the process made it less likely an equitable and timely agreement will be achieved.

Excuse me if I don't say 'thank you'.

Must not be a nice day to peddle around.

Pretty simple for me. I have an inherent distrust for career politicians I guess. Malone has said he'll do this then step down. He has no ulterior motive, it seems, except to leave a legacy of success for his fellow pilots. Career politicians should not stand in the way of what's best for the group. When they do, as seen recently, they should be politely shown the door.

Yup. Harwood is the ultimate "career ALPA" prima donna.
Forcing the MEC to remove him instead of just resigning was typical of the type.

...and right on time, here is Bill's dog, barking at cars.

There is a huge difference between marking to market and giving away the store. You want progress at the table? There's only one way to get it. The section six timeline doesn't advance until our reps start acting like grownups.

These are the people you wanted. You won the elections, and squandered the opportunity afforded by this moment.

Why is the C44 First Officer rep posting on chitchat during a briefing by the negotiators?

What is far more interesting is your failure to recognize Harwood's real reason for writing this latest in his series of manifestos. You do realize that he places the blame for the failure of his latest work in Bartels? He believes he led up the misinformation campaign on social media that caused it to fail. He cannot accept the fact that it was an inferior product and failed on an unprecedented level as a result.

I think they and most everyone wants the current MEC to succeed. What the above are attempting to do is drive the debate in a direction that will actually make a deal possible. Somewhere between C2015 which obviously failed, and Counter 2015 which obviously will never come to complete fruition.

There is a middle ground for a deal between both positions. Having the MEC fail helps no one and hurts everyone.

Curly and Harwood make it abundantly clear that they want the current admin to fail to prove that they were right with TA2015. This is about narcissism, not success.

Very well put, Trip!

This is what its all about!

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, as wrong as it is.
CC has done more for the pilot group than you could ever imagine since your short time here. CC is a pilot advocate.
And you're one to talk of narcissism, with nearly 15,000 posts.
Sheez!

There is some truth to that. He has provided a much needed insight into the world of the previous failed leadership and provided a endless supply of comedic material on various social boards.

With one word, you put yourself in the management appeasement camp and all else is lost. We don't need to ACCOMMODATE sh!t. "Consider"? "Evaluate"? Sure... I'd buy that, but you'll have no accommodation vote from me. Was their "business objective" of us accepting TA15 a necessary one in order to move on to their "legitimate business objective" of getting 190s on the property?

What is your spin on EB's comments to the effect of a changed landscape since TA rejection and United's agreement?

Your "Orange Crush" characterization of a visual representation of unity leads me to believe you honestly don't understand union 101 or you've come down with a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome. If our reps appease the majority Orange Crush, I say Bravo! That's what it means to lead and represent. I'm very glad you're not at the table...I hope???

You do realize that some of us have been on this forum prior to NA-15. Almost 10 years in Clamps case, so your post count reference to narcissism is not only totally without context it is also childish.

Scoop

Trip 7, I may owe you an apology. Your last several posts have demonstrated you are not just repeating a mantra. I am both surprised and impressed.

I am aware you have not been here long. For those of us who have been, the ride has not been what was expected.

Our most senior guys, the ones everyone thinks had a storybook career have had the rug pulled out from them many, many times, starting with the B scale. They are approaching a retirement that is a shadow of what they signed up for. The list is much longer but its a start...

The mid pack guys experienced furloughs, bankruptcy, PRP, a decade of stagnation, witnessed the outsourcing of narrow and now widebody jobs, loss of retirement, continued bankruptcy era concessions, etc... Often facilitated by our CBA.

The new guys have the opportunities that none of us endured and the potential for "dream" careers due to the quickening pace of retirements.

My caution to new guys is dont focus on 1-5 years from now. Focus on the next 20-30 years and get smart about scope, your futures depend on it.

Anyway, I am satisfied that you are reading thru the lines and I commend you for that.

It sounds like you are laying the groundwork to shill for the next TA by disavowing your "yes" vote--and the pathetic sales job you bought into and propagated at max power.

I recommend you join under a new screen name if you want to play this game.

I have to break from you hear, scambo. With all of Moak's scumbags popping out of the woodwork on Facebook, and now trip7's miraculous salvation, I smell a rat.

If we get a concesssionary TA, and trip7 rails against it, I promise to eat my words. Until then, I consider him attempting to regain his tattered credibility by turning his back on the product he did everything within his power to sell here.

I do agree with you that new guys must have a laser focus on long-term scope.

Time will tell. For the meantime, I removed him from ignore.

As an aside, I dont really know what Moaks boys think they will accomplish. They are the last group of pilots I ever want to see doing union work again. They are toxic at this point.

In todays environment, their scheme is a failure from the outset. The USAFA honor council games that theyve been playing for the last 25+ years have been shown the light of day. Their tactics and the outcome resulting from them are a failure from the outset. Their pathetic echo chamber of schemers have been outed and they are done.

I've learned a lot in the past few months. Definitely some big flaws in my thought process plus too much trust in ALPA's statements. Live and learn.

I completely understand your point of view. I believe there are around 8900 other pilots like you who are dead zoners and will be short of the $3.6 million needed to have a 180k per year retirement for 20 years. Hopefully significant progress will be made towards making you all whole again.

Well now, that'd be your opinion, which you are entitled to, however wrong it is.

When one doesn't constantly keep changing screen names every time one is deemed irrelevant, the post count can get high. What would be the post count for you, say, if we add up all your screen names?

So it's possible he could have even more than 15,000 posts. Wow, but back on topic. In his long 15 year ALPA career Bartels, list the improvements to our contract that Bartels is responsible for. After 15 years it should be quite a long list.

Harwood's missives are mostly just self-serving attempts at rehabilitating his reputation but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary. Those guys are always plotting something. Some of the old guard are rumored to have approached their friends in management about working together to help them return to power.
I consider that unlikely. There's no doubt management would love to have the Moakists back, but it would be way too risky to stall the process long enough to see if that happened. Pilot group anger would be explosive by then.

Besides, I think even management probably agrees with your assessment regarding the Moakists:
"They are toxic at this point".

Short time here, eh? A decade is a short time, I guess.

No matter what good Curly has done in the past, he's undoing it by actively cheering for failure. Truly despicable behavior.

And by the way, Curly amassed nearly the amount of posts I have here in almost 10 years in only 2 at chitchat. So, if you want to throw that stone...

I have little doubt such overtures have occurred.

This is absolutely the 100% truth, Check.

Unlike some people, he's kept his screen name the entire time. :rolleyes:

Best way to keep the "Moakist" out of power is to actually produce a TA that the pilots overwhelmingly support. I think JM is capable of it, but I have my doubts that he'll get one. Bartels was furious that Malone beat him during the Chairman's election. Lewis is reported to have exploded in anger during the meeting as Malone garnered more and more votes, and Crane tried to convince JM to drop out of the MC election and run for NC chairman instead. Bartels will be using his coalition to undermine Malone and the negotiators. Bartels wants failure so that he can gain more political power during the fall officer elections. Watch their feet.

It's kind of amusing in a sad way. They blow up with unionoid crap, then once that dies down they drop off. Then when it's time, they pop back up again with another name thinking they are being clever and that no one can tell who they are. Truly the smartest people in the room. :rolleyes:

Curly's just a line pilot and I've seen zero evidence that he is cheering for failure. Curly wants a TA, but it's Bartels and the coalition he leads on the MEC that is undermining Malone. Curly is the least of your worries.

And shouldn't you put yourself on report for insulting a member? :eek:

Lewis EXPLODED in anger! Bartels, the almighty evil ring leader! Oh my! You'll never guess what happens next!

Huh. Interesting.

http://blog.karmona.com/wp-content/u..._head_sand.jpg

In your Apple Dumpling Gang wet dreams.

I think you will find the MEC very unified at the current meeting.

Why don't you lemmings pick on Captain Brielmann?

He is much more no concessions than Captain Bartels.

I think we know the answer.

I encourage the 20 of you to keep wacking away. You will regain power in no time at all.

We can tell how smart they are by how they write. :D

Then/than.

Sailingfun's dead giveaway.

I can spell better then you!

I have flown with both Curly and Bartels. Neither one is the fire breathing douchebag azzhat they are made out to be on here.

Being cordial on a trip is one thing, having a complete meltdown on FB is another. We are accountable on both ends.