The Surveys
08-21-2016, 05:51 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,503
Originally Posted by Cogf16
Obviously, the "gives" are a huge part of this, but 18/5/5 and NO PS changes with full retro would very likely pass, if coupled with training/vacation DC increases. I could not support a TA with this if it had
-JV changes
-VB we couldn't walk away from (Ironclad)
Sick leave AIP would need tweaked and I could live with a slight ALV increase and maybe a little something else. Any other scope changes would be VERY hard to allow. But the pay(rates/vacation/training), retro and absolutely no PS changes (the executive group "holdout" is an auto No for me) offset the few gives. It would be close but I think it would pass.
Fire Away.
-JV changes
-VB we couldn't walk away from (Ironclad)
Sick leave AIP would need tweaked and I could live with a slight ALV increase and maybe a little something else. Any other scope changes would be VERY hard to allow. But the pay(rates/vacation/training), retro and absolutely no PS changes (the executive group "holdout" is an auto No for me) offset the few gives. It would be close but I think it would pass.
Fire Away.
08-21-2016, 05:55 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
Posts: 978
Originally Posted by gloopy
I wouldn't say the 12 "got us parked" without also saying the company got us parked. Of course, the company (thinks they) want us parked. I'd rather be parked for one thousand years than agree to a crap deal. Let them try and find pilots when we are FAR AND AWAY the worst compensated of all the legacy airlines, ****ed off, destroyed culture and even cut throat ULCC's that pay better. Bring it.
We're done selling our jobs and self funding our pay raises. We already GAVE THEM the single biggest wish list "religious" issue they supposedly had, and then after they got that...just so happened to be juuusssssssssst after the end of the busy summer season...they stonewall us on pay with:
*not enough of an increase in the first place
*taking several percent of that insufficient amount back immediately with PS changes
*wanting an UNLIMITED "officer's eat first" clause that they and they alone control.
All that AFTER they got their number one wish list item gift wrapped and bow tied.
And then they want us to pay for our insufficient pay increase, give them even more jobs, more DC-9-10 replacement jets at DCI and massively more "flexibility" with JV's beyond the agreement they don't even follow anyway? All with the worst vacation in the industry?
Nope.
Call the strike vote and work towards that end for as long as it takes.
We're done selling our jobs and self funding our pay raises. We already GAVE THEM the single biggest wish list "religious" issue they supposedly had, and then after they got that...just so happened to be juuusssssssssst after the end of the busy summer season...they stonewall us on pay with:
*not enough of an increase in the first place
*taking several percent of that insufficient amount back immediately with PS changes
*wanting an UNLIMITED "officer's eat first" clause that they and they alone control.
All that AFTER they got their number one wish list item gift wrapped and bow tied.
And then they want us to pay for our insufficient pay increase, give them even more jobs, more DC-9-10 replacement jets at DCI and massively more "flexibility" with JV's beyond the agreement they don't even follow anyway? All with the worst vacation in the industry?
Nope.
Call the strike vote and work towards that end for as long as it takes.
08-21-2016, 08:20 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Originally Posted by Sink r8
Fair enough. The company needs to move more, and they're not jumping in with both feet, are they? I think they can definitely write a much bigger. Twhree reasons they don't: 1) they don't really have to yet, 2) time works in their favor, and 3) they have no assurances that the bigger check yields certainty of outcome anyway.
If the 12 didn't completely freeze up for three weeks before the soft park, they could have gotten more. If you can get 15-17 guys out of 19 send the NC in, saying 18/5/5, no PS changes, a little of this, a little of that, and we'll actually stand behind the TA, and sell you three years of bliss, I think the company would do it. Our problem is that we can't actually work together. You figure that with the 15-16 the 12 have, there would never have been an issue, yet here we are. All of it self-inflicted, none of it making sense.
So, yes, I agree that the company needs to come up more. I assume they're going to convince the mediator they're ready to continue serious negotiations, make serious movement.
Are we?
If the 12 didn't completely freeze up for three weeks before the soft park, they could have gotten more. If you can get 15-17 guys out of 19 send the NC in, saying 18/5/5, no PS changes, a little of this, a little of that, and we'll actually stand behind the TA, and sell you three years of bliss, I think the company would do it. Our problem is that we can't actually work together. You figure that with the 15-16 the 12 have, there would never have been an issue, yet here we are. All of it self-inflicted, none of it making sense.
So, yes, I agree that the company needs to come up more. I assume they're going to convince the mediator they're ready to continue serious negotiations, make serious movement.
Are we?
Vacation seems to be another stick in the eye with the whole re-warming of the pathetic "pay no credit" clause. That's a non starter for that section, and they're sticking to it by all indications.
They want even more large RJ's? Are you kidding me? Really? Will there ever be a contract where they don't "need" more DC-9-10 replacement jets at the outsource providers? At some point either we have to wait for them to stop asking, or we have to stand up and say you know what, you already have WAY more than enough. I think its that time.
It would be one thing if they were proposing real, meaningful and substantial GAINS to all sections, but just a little shy on the rates. I don't think that's where we are though, or the board wouldn't have said we were so far apart. I think Ed has called in his union busting advisors and Ron Allen-esque pilot hating mafia because he thinks we're so desperate for a nominal rate increase that we'll take anything. Buzz's little self immolating deep throat martyr tantrum has likely only emboldened Ed's resolve to basically screw us because he thinks he can.
I understand TVM, and small ball and moving the ball and all the sports analogies etc. We're not headed down the road to a strike that could liquidate the airline over a couple percent in rates. But we may be over their ridiculous insistence on across the board (and never ending) concessions and selling of jobs. If there was ever a time to stand up to that nonsense and say no, this is that time. We've already given them their number one item and they said thank you very much and spiked the football in our faces and dabbed on us. Enough.
08-22-2016, 12:52 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by gloopy
To any extent that any of us line pukes can say we are, I think the main issue, once again, isn't the lack of compensation but rather the presence of concessions. I think the company is just too greedy. While IMO the pay proposal isn't enough, they just doubled down with poison pills like the 4% (or so) hit from the loss of DC and especially the unlimited potential hit from their disgusting "officer's eat first" clause. That has to go, or at the very least have limits set to it so we can (at the very least) see what the maximum damage could be from it.
Vacation seems to be another stick in the eye with the whole re-warming of the pathetic "pay no credit" clause. That's a non starter for that section, and they're sticking to it by all indications.
They want even more large RJ's? Are you kidding me? Really? Will there ever be a contract where they don't "need" more DC-9-10 replacement jets at the outsource providers? At some point either we have to wait for them to stop asking, or we have to stand up and say you know what, you already have WAY more than enough. I think its that time.
It would be one thing if they were proposing real, meaningful and substantial GAINS to all sections, but just a little shy on the rates. I don't think that's where we are though, or the board wouldn't have said we were so far apart. I think Ed has called in his union busting advisors and Ron Allen-esque pilot hating mafia because he thinks we're so desperate for a nominal rate increase that we'll take anything. Buzz's little self immolating deep throat martyr tantrum has likely only emboldened Ed's resolve to basically screw us because he thinks he can.
I understand TVM, and small ball and moving the ball and all the sports analogies etc. We're not headed down the road to a strike that could liquidate the airline over a couple percent in rates. But we may be over their ridiculous insistence on across the board (and never ending) concessions and selling of jobs. If there was ever a time to stand up to that nonsense and say no, this is that time. We've already given them their number one item and they said thank you very much and spiked the football in our faces and dabbed on us. Enough.
Vacation seems to be another stick in the eye with the whole re-warming of the pathetic "pay no credit" clause. That's a non starter for that section, and they're sticking to it by all indications.
They want even more large RJ's? Are you kidding me? Really? Will there ever be a contract where they don't "need" more DC-9-10 replacement jets at the outsource providers? At some point either we have to wait for them to stop asking, or we have to stand up and say you know what, you already have WAY more than enough. I think its that time.
It would be one thing if they were proposing real, meaningful and substantial GAINS to all sections, but just a little shy on the rates. I don't think that's where we are though, or the board wouldn't have said we were so far apart. I think Ed has called in his union busting advisors and Ron Allen-esque pilot hating mafia because he thinks we're so desperate for a nominal rate increase that we'll take anything. Buzz's little self immolating deep throat martyr tantrum has likely only emboldened Ed's resolve to basically screw us because he thinks he can.
I understand TVM, and small ball and moving the ball and all the sports analogies etc. We're not headed down the road to a strike that could liquidate the airline over a couple percent in rates. But we may be over their ridiculous insistence on across the board (and never ending) concessions and selling of jobs. If there was ever a time to stand up to that nonsense and say no, this is that time. We've already given them their number one item and they said thank you very much and spiked the football in our faces and dabbed on us. Enough.
08-22-2016, 03:07 AM
#96
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: systems analyst
Posts: 757
Originally Posted by Sink r8
Fair enough. The company needs to move more, and they're not jumping in with both feet, are they? I think they can definitely write a much bigger. Twhree reasons they don't: 1) they don't really have to yet, 2) time works in their favor, and 3) they have no assurances that the bigger check yields certainty of outcome anyway.
If the 12 didn't completely freeze up for three weeks before the soft park, they could have gotten more. If you can get 15-17 guys out of 19 send the NC in, saying 18/5/5, no PS changes, a little of this, a little of that, and we'll actually stand behind the TA, and sell you three years of bliss, I think the company would do it. Our problem is that we can't actually work together. You figure that with the 15-16 the 12 have, there would never have been an issue, yet here we are. All of it self-inflicted, none of it making sense.
So, yes, I agree that the company needs to come up more. I assume they're going to convince the mediator they're ready to continue serious negotiations, make serious movement.
Are we?
If the 12 didn't completely freeze up for three weeks before the soft park, they could have gotten more. If you can get 15-17 guys out of 19 send the NC in, saying 18/5/5, no PS changes, a little of this, a little of that, and we'll actually stand behind the TA, and sell you three years of bliss, I think the company would do it. Our problem is that we can't actually work together. You figure that with the 15-16 the 12 have, there would never have been an issue, yet here we are. All of it self-inflicted, none of it making sense.
So, yes, I agree that the company needs to come up more. I assume they're going to convince the mediator they're ready to continue serious negotiations, make serious movement.
Are we?
You say this like the other guys had no input. That they were bystanders. Don't they share some of the responsibility? The 12 don't live in a vacuum. I'm sure the other guys behaved in a way to push them down that path. Why is united +1 no concessions of any kind so hard to comprehend?
08-22-2016, 03:16 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: 320/fo
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by deadseal
come on buddy.
You say this like the other guys had no input. That they were bystanders. Don't they share some of the responsibility? The 12 don't live in a vacuum. I'm sure the other guys behaved in a way to push them down that path. Why is united +1 no concessions of any kind so hard to comprehend?
You say this like the other guys had no input. That they were bystanders. Don't they share some of the responsibility? The 12 don't live in a vacuum. I'm sure the other guys behaved in a way to push them down that path. Why is united +1 no concessions of any kind so hard to comprehend?
..) Papa
08-22-2016, 05:30 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Power top
Posts: 2,959
By the end of the week, we'll know if Ed's going to blink. Don't count on it, the RLA is in his back pocket, and he's saving a ton of money everyday.
Anecdotal, but I think 50% of the pilots are apathetic. Other half are split.
Anecdotal, but I think 50% of the pilots are apathetic. Other half are split.
08-22-2016, 05:32 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by gloopy
They want even more large RJ's? Are you kidding me? Really?
08-22-2016, 05:33 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by Hank Kingsley
By the end of the week, we'll know if Ed's going to blink. Don't count on it, the RLA is in his back pocket, and he's saving a ton of money everyday.
Anecdotal, but I think 50% of the pilots are apathetic. Other half are split.
Anecdotal, but I think 50% of the pilots are apathetic. Other half are split.
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