High Noon At The NMB
09-03-2016, 01:17 PM
#1
Snake
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 242
High Noon At The NMB
Am I missing something? Is anyone here thick enough to believe that there will ever be a tentative agreement that doesn’t include something for the company? There are four possible outcomes to any negotiation, and here they are in order of value:
1. Capitulation. One side wins.
2. Negotiation. Both sides win.
3. Mediation. The planes keep flying, and a tie if you are LUCKY.
4. Imposition by Congress. Sure, go ahead and ignore the warnings of history.
Yeah, I would really like for Mother Delta to just cave in, because that would provide the most valuable outcome for me. But it ain’t gonna happen. Capitulation by ALPA would be really good for Delta’s shareholders, but it is only going to happen in some strange parallel universe.
Negotiated agreements always accurately reflect the value of our work in the macro economy, along with whatever leverage we are able to bring to bear. You can argue about “pilot leverage” all day, and the fact remains that Delta is still punching way above her weight, as our summer flying numbers show.
Similarly, if management was holding a table position that allowed no gains for pilots, we wouldn’t waste any time in showing the NMB that they were bargaining in bad faith.
Whenever one side has a better option in mediation, they will take it. This week proves it. A nice cookout on Monday, followed by a trip to a non-disclosed location for four days of mediated talks. Look at every interview Ed Bastian has given in the last nine months; whenever the topic turns to negotiations, all he does is smile, wave his checkbook at the camera, and utter something about how he doesn’t know how things will turn out, but he is committed to making us the highest paid pilots in the world.
He isn’t saying that to you, me, the investors, or even the press; then he says that, he’s speaking to the NMB. They know that their best option right now is to play nice with the NMB.
And what are we doing? We are spinning our wheels, walking up and down the sidewalk in complete ignorance of the fact that we are years away from release to self help, and ignoring the direct advice of Linda Puchala, who in 2015 told us, “leave your inner child at the door,” and, “don’t expect a slow walk through fantasy land.”
The NMB halted talks about a month ago. Some are claiming we weren’t parked, but in what universe is it a positive development when the NMB hands a company the privilege of an extra month under an amendable agreement?
During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction.
Looking at the resulting emails from the reps who were excluded from this ill-advised cabal, I can make my own inferences. Consider the ideological spectrum for a moment; Buzz and Sam are very different men, but they wouldn’t be writing about it, and writing virtually the same thing, if they didn’t think this was imposing serious risks upon the outcome of talks with the NMB.
It is my conclusion that the direction issued by the cabal instructs the negotiators to engage in regressive bargaining. They have been told to pull the Agreements-In-Principle, and to increase our demands in sections that are still open. Instead of an end game to what has up until now been a logical and transparent process, the cabal has decided to avoid the consequences of their own choices through the direction phase of these negotiations, and wander into flapdoodle pandering ahead of this fall’s elections.
Linda Puchala will look at us like we are nuts. That’s because we would have to be nuts to do the exact thing she sternly warned us against doing. She will look at Ed with his ready smile and open checkbook, look back at us, and tell us that we are parked until next summer at the earliest, and in no case before we extinguish our helmet fire and send someone to the table with the horsepower to actually close a deal.
Last Thursday, Malone told the Atlanta pilots that we were only down to a bare handful of open items; even if the cabal is successful in blocking a vote, the final table positions WILL become public knowledge. The Delta pilots will know what was available, and exactly who kept them from having the ultimate decision.
1. Capitulation. One side wins.
2. Negotiation. Both sides win.
3. Mediation. The planes keep flying, and a tie if you are LUCKY.
4. Imposition by Congress. Sure, go ahead and ignore the warnings of history.
Yeah, I would really like for Mother Delta to just cave in, because that would provide the most valuable outcome for me. But it ain’t gonna happen. Capitulation by ALPA would be really good for Delta’s shareholders, but it is only going to happen in some strange parallel universe.
Negotiated agreements always accurately reflect the value of our work in the macro economy, along with whatever leverage we are able to bring to bear. You can argue about “pilot leverage” all day, and the fact remains that Delta is still punching way above her weight, as our summer flying numbers show.
Similarly, if management was holding a table position that allowed no gains for pilots, we wouldn’t waste any time in showing the NMB that they were bargaining in bad faith.
Whenever one side has a better option in mediation, they will take it. This week proves it. A nice cookout on Monday, followed by a trip to a non-disclosed location for four days of mediated talks. Look at every interview Ed Bastian has given in the last nine months; whenever the topic turns to negotiations, all he does is smile, wave his checkbook at the camera, and utter something about how he doesn’t know how things will turn out, but he is committed to making us the highest paid pilots in the world.
He isn’t saying that to you, me, the investors, or even the press; then he says that, he’s speaking to the NMB. They know that their best option right now is to play nice with the NMB.
And what are we doing? We are spinning our wheels, walking up and down the sidewalk in complete ignorance of the fact that we are years away from release to self help, and ignoring the direct advice of Linda Puchala, who in 2015 told us, “leave your inner child at the door,” and, “don’t expect a slow walk through fantasy land.”
The NMB halted talks about a month ago. Some are claiming we weren’t parked, but in what universe is it a positive development when the NMB hands a company the privilege of an extra month under an amendable agreement?
During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction.
Looking at the resulting emails from the reps who were excluded from this ill-advised cabal, I can make my own inferences. Consider the ideological spectrum for a moment; Buzz and Sam are very different men, but they wouldn’t be writing about it, and writing virtually the same thing, if they didn’t think this was imposing serious risks upon the outcome of talks with the NMB.
It is my conclusion that the direction issued by the cabal instructs the negotiators to engage in regressive bargaining. They have been told to pull the Agreements-In-Principle, and to increase our demands in sections that are still open. Instead of an end game to what has up until now been a logical and transparent process, the cabal has decided to avoid the consequences of their own choices through the direction phase of these negotiations, and wander into flapdoodle pandering ahead of this fall’s elections.
Linda Puchala will look at us like we are nuts. That’s because we would have to be nuts to do the exact thing she sternly warned us against doing. She will look at Ed with his ready smile and open checkbook, look back at us, and tell us that we are parked until next summer at the earliest, and in no case before we extinguish our helmet fire and send someone to the table with the horsepower to actually close a deal.
Last Thursday, Malone told the Atlanta pilots that we were only down to a bare handful of open items; even if the cabal is successful in blocking a vote, the final table positions WILL become public knowledge. The Delta pilots will know what was available, and exactly who kept them from having the ultimate decision.
09-03-2016, 01:27 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 845
Originally Posted by rube
Am I missing something? Is anyone here thick enough to believe that there will ever be a tentative agreement that doesn’t include something for the company? There are four possible outcomes to any negotiation, and here they are in order of value:
1. Capitulation. One side wins.
2. Negotiation. Both sides win.
3. Mediation. The planes keep flying, and a tie if you are LUCKY.
4. Imposition by Congress. Sure, go ahead and ignore the warnings of history.
Yeah, I would really like for Mother Delta to just cave in, because that would provide the most valuable outcome for me. But it ain’t gonna happen. Capitulation by ALPA would be really good for Delta’s shareholders, but it is only going to happen in some strange parallel universe.
Negotiated agreements always accurately reflect the value of our work in the macro economy, along with whatever leverage we are able to bring to bear. You can argue about “pilot leverage” all day, and the fact remains that Delta is still punching way above her weight, as our summer flying numbers show.
Similarly, if management was holding a table position that allowed no gains for pilots, we wouldn’t waste any time in showing the NMB that they were bargaining in bad faith.
Whenever one side has a better option in mediation, they will take it. This week proves it. A nice cookout on Monday, followed by a trip to a non-disclosed location for four days of mediated talks. Look at every interview Ed Bastian has given in the last nine months; whenever the topic turns to negotiations, all he does is smile, wave his checkbook at the camera, and utter something about how he doesn’t know how things will turn out, but he is committed to making us the highest paid pilots in the world.
He isn’t saying that to you, me, the investors, or even the press; then he says that, he’s speaking to the NMB. They know that their best option right now is to play nice with the NMB.
And what are we doing? We are spinning our wheels, walking up and down the sidewalk in complete ignorance of the fact that we are years away from release to self help, and ignoring the direct advice of Linda Puchala, who in 2015 told us, “leave your inner child at the door,” and, “don’t expect a slow walk through fantasy land.”
The NMB halted talks about a month ago. Some are claiming we weren’t parked, but in what universe is it a positive development when the NMB hands a company the privilege of an extra month under an amendable agreement?
During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction.
Looking at the resulting emails from the reps who were excluded from this ill-advised cabal, I can make my own inferences. Consider the ideological spectrum for a moment; Buzz and Sam are very different men, but they wouldn’t be writing about it, and writing virtually the same thing, if they didn’t think this was imposing serious risks upon the outcome of talks with the NMB.
It is my conclusion that the direction issued by the cabal instructs the negotiators to engage in regressive bargaining. They have been told to pull the Agreements-In-Principle, and to increase our demands in sections that are still open. Instead of an end game to what has up until now been a logical and transparent process, the cabal has decided to avoid the consequences of their own choices through the direction phase of these negotiations, and wander into flapdoodle pandering ahead of this fall’s elections.
Linda Puchala will look at us like we are nuts. That’s because we would have to be nuts to do the exact thing she sternly warned us against doing. She will look at Ed with his ready smile and open checkbook, look back at us, and tell us that we are parked until next summer at the earliest, and in no case before we extinguish our helmet fire and send someone to the table with the horsepower to actually close a deal.
Last Thursday, Malone told the Atlanta pilots that we were only down to a bare handful of open items; even if the cabal is successful in blocking a vote, the final table positions WILL become public knowledge. The Delta pilots will know what was available, and exactly who kept them from having the ultimate decision.
1. Capitulation. One side wins.
2. Negotiation. Both sides win.
3. Mediation. The planes keep flying, and a tie if you are LUCKY.
4. Imposition by Congress. Sure, go ahead and ignore the warnings of history.
Yeah, I would really like for Mother Delta to just cave in, because that would provide the most valuable outcome for me. But it ain’t gonna happen. Capitulation by ALPA would be really good for Delta’s shareholders, but it is only going to happen in some strange parallel universe.
Negotiated agreements always accurately reflect the value of our work in the macro economy, along with whatever leverage we are able to bring to bear. You can argue about “pilot leverage” all day, and the fact remains that Delta is still punching way above her weight, as our summer flying numbers show.
Similarly, if management was holding a table position that allowed no gains for pilots, we wouldn’t waste any time in showing the NMB that they were bargaining in bad faith.
Whenever one side has a better option in mediation, they will take it. This week proves it. A nice cookout on Monday, followed by a trip to a non-disclosed location for four days of mediated talks. Look at every interview Ed Bastian has given in the last nine months; whenever the topic turns to negotiations, all he does is smile, wave his checkbook at the camera, and utter something about how he doesn’t know how things will turn out, but he is committed to making us the highest paid pilots in the world.
He isn’t saying that to you, me, the investors, or even the press; then he says that, he’s speaking to the NMB. They know that their best option right now is to play nice with the NMB.
And what are we doing? We are spinning our wheels, walking up and down the sidewalk in complete ignorance of the fact that we are years away from release to self help, and ignoring the direct advice of Linda Puchala, who in 2015 told us, “leave your inner child at the door,” and, “don’t expect a slow walk through fantasy land.”
The NMB halted talks about a month ago. Some are claiming we weren’t parked, but in what universe is it a positive development when the NMB hands a company the privilege of an extra month under an amendable agreement?
During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction.
Looking at the resulting emails from the reps who were excluded from this ill-advised cabal, I can make my own inferences. Consider the ideological spectrum for a moment; Buzz and Sam are very different men, but they wouldn’t be writing about it, and writing virtually the same thing, if they didn’t think this was imposing serious risks upon the outcome of talks with the NMB.
It is my conclusion that the direction issued by the cabal instructs the negotiators to engage in regressive bargaining. They have been told to pull the Agreements-In-Principle, and to increase our demands in sections that are still open. Instead of an end game to what has up until now been a logical and transparent process, the cabal has decided to avoid the consequences of their own choices through the direction phase of these negotiations, and wander into flapdoodle pandering ahead of this fall’s elections.
Linda Puchala will look at us like we are nuts. That’s because we would have to be nuts to do the exact thing she sternly warned us against doing. She will look at Ed with his ready smile and open checkbook, look back at us, and tell us that we are parked until next summer at the earliest, and in no case before we extinguish our helmet fire and send someone to the table with the horsepower to actually close a deal.
Last Thursday, Malone told the Atlanta pilots that we were only down to a bare handful of open items; even if the cabal is successful in blocking a vote, the final table positions WILL become public knowledge. The Delta pilots will know what was available, and exactly who kept them from having the ultimate decision.
09-03-2016, 02:06 PM
#5
Quality of Lifer
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: M88A
Posts: 672
Originally Posted by rube
Am I missing something? Is anyone here thick enough to believe that there will ever be a tentative agreement that doesn’t include something for the company? There are four possible outcomes to any negotiation, and here they are in order of value:
1. Capitulation. One side wins.
2. Negotiation. Both sides win.
3. Mediation. The planes keep flying, and a tie if you are LUCKY.
4. Imposition by Congress. Sure, go ahead and ignore the warnings of history.
Yeah, I would really like for Mother Delta to just cave in, because that would provide the most valuable outcome for me. But it ain’t gonna happen. Capitulation by ALPA would be really good for Delta’s shareholders, but it is only going to happen in some strange parallel universe.
Negotiated agreements always accurately reflect the value of our work in the macro economy, along with whatever leverage we are able to bring to bear. You can argue about “pilot leverage” all day, and the fact remains that Delta is still punching way above her weight, as our summer flying numbers show.
Similarly, if management was holding a table position that allowed no gains for pilots, we wouldn’t waste any time in showing the NMB that they were bargaining in bad faith.
Whenever one side has a better option in mediation, they will take it. This week proves it. A nice cookout on Monday, followed by a trip to a non-disclosed location for four days of mediated talks. Look at every interview Ed Bastian has given in the last nine months; whenever the topic turns to negotiations, all he does is smile, wave his checkbook at the camera, and utter something about how he doesn’t know how things will turn out, but he is committed to making us the highest paid pilots in the world.
He isn’t saying that to you, me, the investors, or even the press; then he says that, he’s speaking to the NMB. They know that their best option right now is to play nice with the NMB.
And what are we doing? We are spinning our wheels, walking up and down the sidewalk in complete ignorance of the fact that we are years away from release to self help, and ignoring the direct advice of Linda Puchala, who in 2015 told us, “leave your inner child at the door,” and, “don’t expect a slow walk through fantasy land.”
The NMB halted talks about a month ago. Some are claiming we weren’t parked, but in what universe is it a positive development when the NMB hands a company the privilege of an extra month under an amendable agreement?
During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction.
Looking at the resulting emails from the reps who were excluded from this ill-advised cabal, I can make my own inferences. Consider the ideological spectrum for a moment; Buzz and Sam are very different men, but they wouldn’t be writing about it, and writing virtually the same thing, if they didn’t think this was imposing serious risks upon the outcome of talks with the NMB.
It is my conclusion that the direction issued by the cabal instructs the negotiators to engage in regressive bargaining. They have been told to pull the Agreements-In-Principle, and to increase our demands in sections that are still open. Instead of an end game to what has up until now been a logical and transparent process, the cabal has decided to avoid the consequences of their own choices through the direction phase of these negotiations, and wander into flapdoodle pandering ahead of this fall’s elections.
Linda Puchala will look at us like we are nuts. That’s because we would have to be nuts to do the exact thing she sternly warned us against doing. She will look at Ed with his ready smile and open checkbook, look back at us, and tell us that we are parked until next summer at the earliest, and in no case before we extinguish our helmet fire and send someone to the table with the horsepower to actually close a deal.
Last Thursday, Malone told the Atlanta pilots that we were only down to a bare handful of open items; even if the cabal is successful in blocking a vote, the final table positions WILL become public knowledge. The Delta pilots will know what was available, and exactly who kept them from having the ultimate decision.
1. Capitulation. One side wins.
2. Negotiation. Both sides win.
3. Mediation. The planes keep flying, and a tie if you are LUCKY.
4. Imposition by Congress. Sure, go ahead and ignore the warnings of history.
Yeah, I would really like for Mother Delta to just cave in, because that would provide the most valuable outcome for me. But it ain’t gonna happen. Capitulation by ALPA would be really good for Delta’s shareholders, but it is only going to happen in some strange parallel universe.
Negotiated agreements always accurately reflect the value of our work in the macro economy, along with whatever leverage we are able to bring to bear. You can argue about “pilot leverage” all day, and the fact remains that Delta is still punching way above her weight, as our summer flying numbers show.
Similarly, if management was holding a table position that allowed no gains for pilots, we wouldn’t waste any time in showing the NMB that they were bargaining in bad faith.
Whenever one side has a better option in mediation, they will take it. This week proves it. A nice cookout on Monday, followed by a trip to a non-disclosed location for four days of mediated talks. Look at every interview Ed Bastian has given in the last nine months; whenever the topic turns to negotiations, all he does is smile, wave his checkbook at the camera, and utter something about how he doesn’t know how things will turn out, but he is committed to making us the highest paid pilots in the world.
He isn’t saying that to you, me, the investors, or even the press; then he says that, he’s speaking to the NMB. They know that their best option right now is to play nice with the NMB.
And what are we doing? We are spinning our wheels, walking up and down the sidewalk in complete ignorance of the fact that we are years away from release to self help, and ignoring the direct advice of Linda Puchala, who in 2015 told us, “leave your inner child at the door,” and, “don’t expect a slow walk through fantasy land.”
The NMB halted talks about a month ago. Some are claiming we weren’t parked, but in what universe is it a positive development when the NMB hands a company the privilege of an extra month under an amendable agreement?
During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction.
Looking at the resulting emails from the reps who were excluded from this ill-advised cabal, I can make my own inferences. Consider the ideological spectrum for a moment; Buzz and Sam are very different men, but they wouldn’t be writing about it, and writing virtually the same thing, if they didn’t think this was imposing serious risks upon the outcome of talks with the NMB.
It is my conclusion that the direction issued by the cabal instructs the negotiators to engage in regressive bargaining. They have been told to pull the Agreements-In-Principle, and to increase our demands in sections that are still open. Instead of an end game to what has up until now been a logical and transparent process, the cabal has decided to avoid the consequences of their own choices through the direction phase of these negotiations, and wander into flapdoodle pandering ahead of this fall’s elections.
Linda Puchala will look at us like we are nuts. That’s because we would have to be nuts to do the exact thing she sternly warned us against doing. She will look at Ed with his ready smile and open checkbook, look back at us, and tell us that we are parked until next summer at the earliest, and in no case before we extinguish our helmet fire and send someone to the table with the horsepower to actually close a deal.
Last Thursday, Malone told the Atlanta pilots that we were only down to a bare handful of open items; even if the cabal is successful in blocking a vote, the final table positions WILL become public knowledge. The Delta pilots will know what was available, and exactly who kept them from having the ultimate decision.
09-03-2016, 02:14 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,022
Airline pilot contracts take a long time to negotiate. 4 year deals are usually 7+. Moak deals are short and concessionary. Who cares how the NMB process plays out, we have a deal that has tremendous benefits going forward. Just don't F that up. We are finally in a position to weather the slow roll and benefit from the growth of the company, however they decide to do it (read Delta not operating but buying more flying.)
Nice attempt at a scare tactic though. If you don't take this deal now, you're screwed! Really?
Nice attempt at a scare tactic though. If you don't take this deal now, you're screwed! Really?
09-03-2016, 02:31 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,139
Originally Posted by mesaba13
Why would the NMB continue talks if ALPA intends to regressive bargain?
Are some suggesting that we wil get a TA and then the 12 will vote it down?
Are some suggesting that we wil get a TA and then the 12 will vote it down?
The NMB lectured Malone and Uvena about the regressive nature of reopening the AIPs during the call, but is going to allow a few more sessions to see if things can get done, especially in light of the SWAPA deal which pressures the company side a bit. As always, they company can solve this at any time if they back up a big enough Brinks truck. Whether they'll do it or not remains to be seen.
As far as the 12 voting down a TA, who knows? The NC is now operating under direction of the 12, so if the NC reaches a TA it would stand to reason that the 12 approve of it, since they are the ones driving the bus. That assumes we are dealing with reps that are willing to stand behind their direction, which wasn't necessarily the case during TA1.
09-03-2016, 02:40 PM
#9
Snake
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by notEnuf
Airline pilot contracts take a long time to negotiate. 4 year deals are usually 7+. Moak deals are short and concessionary. Who cares how the NMB process plays out, we have a deal that has tremendous benefits going forward. Just don't F that up. We are finally in a position to weather the slow roll and benefit from the growth of the company, however they decide to do it (read Delta not operating but buying more flying.)
Nice attempt at a scare tactic though. If you don't take this deal now, you're screwed! Really?
Nice attempt at a scare tactic though. If you don't take this deal now, you're screwed! Really?
The choice ahead can only belong to the membership. It is way bigger than the dozen reps who have decided to ignore the advice of professional negotiators, counsel, subject matter experts, and the chairwoman of the NMB herself.
09-03-2016, 02:50 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
I'm only going to comment on the below:
"During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction."
This is just another place you shoot but miss the mark. The NMB has a very good idea where things could be headed otherwise they would not be bringing the parties together for negotiations next week.
Denny
"During the siesta, our MEC met to re-direct our negotiators, and instead of conducting themselves in any way that respected longstanding process, twelve reps decided to hold a meeting-within-a-meeting, and return with a diktat for the entire MEC. They didn’t answer questions, they didn’t offer predictions, and the content of their direction is still not public knowledge. Not even the NMB knows the specific direction."
This is just another place you shoot but miss the mark. The NMB has a very good idea where things could be headed otherwise they would not be bringing the parties together for negotiations next week.
Denny
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