Please splain me why +50 RJ76s is a fiasco
09-21-2016, 01:26 PM
#251
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by Consuela
JamesBond,
I apologize if I came off as arrogant. That is certainly not my intention, but again, your negotiations affect everyone (especially in terms of scope relief, which quite honestly, is all I care about).
You might want to check your math with a "ton" more RJ flying... You are correct we have more 50 seat RJs flying (which is fine with me, at this point. It can't generate the revenue necessary to compete...a 76 seat jet can). We also have about that number less in large RJs flying around than DL currently has, let alone another round of re-fleeting DCI. We have a provision in our contract allowing for a 2:1 swap for a 100 seater, so those numbers could change if we ever got a SNB. I guess we could talk JV scope and widebodies too, if you'd like.
Every Legacy pilot group is responsible and has done a disservice to the industry over the last 15 years. Where is the line? That is my only point. I could have sworn I heard back in 2012 that the line had been drawn. I guess not, and in this negotiating environment (4 contracts passed in the last few months?), no less.
I don't know who ****ed in your Wheaties this morning. I am pointing out what should be obvious, but I guess that's none of my business as a fellow ALPA member.
Good luck to you guys.
I apologize if I came off as arrogant. That is certainly not my intention, but again, your negotiations affect everyone (especially in terms of scope relief, which quite honestly, is all I care about).
You might want to check your math with a "ton" more RJ flying... You are correct we have more 50 seat RJs flying (which is fine with me, at this point. It can't generate the revenue necessary to compete...a 76 seat jet can). We also have about that number less in large RJs flying around than DL currently has, let alone another round of re-fleeting DCI. We have a provision in our contract allowing for a 2:1 swap for a 100 seater, so those numbers could change if we ever got a SNB. I guess we could talk JV scope and widebodies too, if you'd like.
Every Legacy pilot group is responsible and has done a disservice to the industry over the last 15 years. Where is the line? That is my only point. I could have sworn I heard back in 2012 that the line had been drawn. I guess not, and in this negotiating environment (4 contracts passed in the last few months?), no less.
I don't know who ****ed in your Wheaties this morning. I am pointing out what should be obvious, but I guess that's none of my business as a fellow ALPA member.
Good luck to you guys.
09-21-2016, 01:31 PM
#252
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by trustbutverify
This kind of post is the kind of ALPA I can get behind. Here's a guy who would benefit from a DALPA contract now, yet he's lobbying for something that could potentially prevent him from getting that benefit. If SunVox can come on here and lobby for the company, Consuela's views are just as welcome imo.
09-21-2016, 02:06 PM
#253
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by Consuela
JamesBond,
I apologize if I came off as arrogant. That is certainly not my intention, but again, your negotiations affect everyone (especially in terms of scope relief, which quite honestly, is all I care about).
You might want to check your math with a "ton" more RJ flying... You are correct we have more 50 seat RJs flying (which is fine with me, at this point. It can't generate the revenue necessary to compete...a 76 seat jet can). We also have about that number less in large RJs flying around than DL currently has, let alone another round of re-fleeting DCI. We have a provision in our contract allowing for a 2:1 swap for a 100 seater, so those numbers could change if we ever got a SNB. I guess we could talk JV scope and widebodies too, if you'd like.
Every Legacy pilot group is responsible and has done a disservice to the industry over the last 15 years. Where is the line? That is my only point. I could have sworn I heard back in 2012 that the line had been drawn. I guess not, and in this negotiating environment (4 contracts passed in the last few months?), no less.
I don't know who ****ed in your Wheaties this morning. I am pointing out what should be obvious, but I guess that's none of my business as a fellow ALPA member.
Good luck to you guys.
I apologize if I came off as arrogant. That is certainly not my intention, but again, your negotiations affect everyone (especially in terms of scope relief, which quite honestly, is all I care about).
You might want to check your math with a "ton" more RJ flying... You are correct we have more 50 seat RJs flying (which is fine with me, at this point. It can't generate the revenue necessary to compete...a 76 seat jet can). We also have about that number less in large RJs flying around than DL currently has, let alone another round of re-fleeting DCI. We have a provision in our contract allowing for a 2:1 swap for a 100 seater, so those numbers could change if we ever got a SNB. I guess we could talk JV scope and widebodies too, if you'd like.
Every Legacy pilot group is responsible and has done a disservice to the industry over the last 15 years. Where is the line? That is my only point. I could have sworn I heard back in 2012 that the line had been drawn. I guess not, and in this negotiating environment (4 contracts passed in the last few months?), no less.
I don't know who ****ed in your Wheaties this morning. I am pointing out what should be obvious, but I guess that's none of my business as a fellow ALPA member.
Good luck to you guys.
Last edited by Scoop; 09-21-2016 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Insult removed
09-21-2016, 02:29 PM
#254
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 360
Originally Posted by msprj2
Thinking he's a she for one. Glad your agreeing with your competition on how your contract should be. I'm sure they have your best interest in mind.
09-21-2016, 02:50 PM
#255
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by capncrunch
I wouldn't apologize. He just wants his money now, screw everyone junior.
09-21-2016, 04:40 PM
#256
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Originally Posted by Hawaii50
No offense was intended to people currently at the regionals. You guys do the same job we do exceptionally. Seriously though you should read the thread before blowing a gasket.
The point was to start a discussion on how to bring flying back to mainline. The company wants more 76 seat airplanes in exchange for retiring 150 50 seaters. Do we allow that or hold the line and try to eventually bring all flying into our list? If you're an experienced pilot (civilian or military, yes we want as much experience as we can get), would you choose Delta starting on a 76 seat airplane or start at another carrier where you'll start on a mainline airplane and be paid better or would it matter? It's definitely an issue with the military types I know who are getting multiple offers.
The point was to start a discussion on how to bring flying back to mainline. The company wants more 76 seat airplanes in exchange for retiring 150 50 seaters. Do we allow that or hold the line and try to eventually bring all flying into our list? If you're an experienced pilot (civilian or military, yes we want as much experience as we can get), would you choose Delta starting on a 76 seat airplane or start at another carrier where you'll start on a mainline airplane and be paid better or would it matter? It's definitely an issue with the military types I know who are getting multiple offers.
76 seaters that fly hub to hub, up to 2k miles (i.e. mainline flying), with a net gain of pilots on a seniority list, with decent pay scales, is better than contracted feed (for delta pilots and for the industry), isn't it? More likely, more 100-130 seaters would fill the gap if more contracted 76 seaters weren't allowed. I don't realistically see 76 seaters on DAL property happening, but I don't think that'd be a deterrent for a well qualified applicant, if the pay was decent. Especially since first year pay is the same across the board, and it could be bid off fairly quickly.
09-21-2016, 06:17 PM
#257
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Wouldn't 50 more jumbo rjs mean fewer c-series jets at mainline?
09-21-2016, 06:20 PM
#258
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
Not quite. They have to remove the extra six seats from the 76-seaters--all of them if even one mainline pilot is furloughed. That is actually some brilliant contractual language crafted under the E-VILL "Moakie" regime. It likely prevented a lot of furloughs a few years ago.
In any case it was much, much more effective than the worthless "no furlough" clause that you often see, because it is not subject to "force majeure" like they are.
In any case it was much, much more effective than the worthless "no furlough" clause that you often see, because it is not subject to "force majeure" like they are.
09-21-2016, 06:21 PM
#259
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Supposedly ed bastain told the old mec that he wanted to have nothing smaller than a 100 seater flying delta passengers and that he wanted it to be mainline.
Fine.
Put it in writing.
Oh but they won't do that old alpa says.
Fine, then he doesn't mean it.
Fine.
Put it in writing.
Oh but they won't do that old alpa says.
Fine, then he doesn't mean it.
09-22-2016, 03:31 AM
#260
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,409
There is a deal very close. This RJ fiasco is a big issue right now that is currently stopping a deal from being closed.
I urge all Delta pilots to use math in their analysis. 125 50 seaters in exchange for 50 70-76 seaters is a net reduction of DCI airframes, seats available, and block hours. It undoubtedly will mean not just more jobs at mainline, but more jobs contractually protected by block hour ratios.
I strongly believe that the company will remove their proposal to change profit sharing in exchange for more RJ flexibility, which will unlock the path to a deal. It's a win win for the pilots with 17-19% Retro DOS, industry leading rates, and guaranteed increase of contractually protected mainline jobs.
If you're a lurker or taking a reasonable and rational approach to evaluating a future deal, I urge you to do the math for yourself, and write your reps with your thoughts.
I urge all Delta pilots to use math in their analysis. 125 50 seaters in exchange for 50 70-76 seaters is a net reduction of DCI airframes, seats available, and block hours. It undoubtedly will mean not just more jobs at mainline, but more jobs contractually protected by block hour ratios.
I strongly believe that the company will remove their proposal to change profit sharing in exchange for more RJ flexibility, which will unlock the path to a deal. It's a win win for the pilots with 17-19% Retro DOS, industry leading rates, and guaranteed increase of contractually protected mainline jobs.
If you're a lurker or taking a reasonable and rational approach to evaluating a future deal, I urge you to do the math for yourself, and write your reps with your thoughts.
