OE/TOE Trip Removal
 

i await your analysis on how the JV changes are a good thing....

If you have input on the subject it is welcome. The details are being worked out, but the site is planning to open up to submissions from any pilot. If you have a pro or con piece on any section/topic in the TA, you can submit it to [email protected]

The plan is to post signed submissions without comment. Unsigned submissions will be collated together and published in aggregate. All submissions must show their work and provide source language where applicable - the facts are what they are.

A rotation designated for OE, meaning it has a note in it that says it is for OE.

Now, you will now allow the company to pull up to 15% of the trips from open time and they no longer need to be designated for OE.

Your sales job is already bleeding through. You are not even attempting to show the cons here!

The graphic is simply a visual explanation of the proposed language. You can read into it whatever you like

If you find inaccuracies, submit the feedback and they will be corrected. It's already happened several times today (thanks to those that have caught mistakes in IVD's & category freezes)

If you want to pretend to give the pros and the cons, you are doing a terrible job at it.

The current language only allows them to pull trips that are designated for OE, you know that pesky little note they put on the pairing when they intend to use it for OE, which rarely exists on open time trips that have a Check Airman on them. Now you want to allow them to pull up to 15% of the trips with no such designation.

Keep selling.

I'm voting yes no matter what the language reads, so I kinda cancel your vote. Now that's complete TIC. But you get the point.

Not really an inaccuracy, but maybe you left something out. Isn't there also a time limit that the trip has to be assigned or it goes back into the pot?

I thought I heard or read somewhere that the company has 48 hours once they pull a trip to schedule an OE or the trip returns to open time - is this true?

Scoop :confused:

Actually, I don't have a huge issue with the concept of pulling trips from open time except for one thing.....the ability to pull before the PCA run is bull**** and completely unsat. In fact any trip should have to go through a full day of PCS runs (4 PCS runs) before OE planners can pull it.

Look. You're afraid for some reason of the actual information being put out. That's fine. Your agenda is showing

If you can show an inaccuracy in any data on the site, it will be updated ASAP. Otherwise we are just talking past each other.

You are absolutely right, the current language says they can withhold a trip that has been designated for OE. There is no limit on how many trips they can designate for OE. <---those are facts

The TA has it's own set of facts, which are different from the current language. If you don't like it fine. The TA language is there for anyone to compare it. All the graphic does is translate the legalese into a digestible format.

OE trip removal is actually listed in the Subjective column because it's up to YOU to determine what you think about it. It is simply listed to highlight that the TA contains a change:

Delta TA Pro/Con

Here's the full Section 23 language if you want to read if yourself. Or you could just keep warbling about a sales job that doesn't exist:

http://www.taprocon.com/source-docs/Section-23

yeah, my only beef with it is that they can be pulled between PCS runs before a pilot gets a shot at it.

You have a point. It is a challenge to distill all the red ink into bullet points without either a) completely re-writing the language or b) leaving something out. The pro/con (actually subjective in this instance) bullet point directs you to the language because it's an entire page of red ink:

http://www.taprocon.com/#/section-23

I believe you are referring to 23.M.4.b which covers a trip that is open in both seats (no A or B). The TA says they can pull that trip for OE, but they have to return it to Open Time if they haven't assigned an LCP within 2 days.

Here is the excerpt:

Who is this TAprocon entity?

Is it a function of the MEC Social Media Liaison, or some self-initiated thing?

He/she said that they were getting FPL to post here, so I assume they are posting on behalf of the MEC.

I cant find that in any of his/her posts. Just curious.

You are correct, my apologies. It was a different user who said that they were posting here while on FPL. I confused the two. Sorry about that.

Thank you for the correction. For the record, nobody working on this site is on FPL. With that out of the way, the what is more important than the who

The criteria for categorizing a pro/con is clearly laid out on the site:
If a change does not easily fit into the pro or con column, it is listed as subjective to note that a change was made vs the Current PWA. The visitor must then draw his own conclusions. References and source language are provided wherever possible

There is no agenda other than the objective truth. The TA will live or die on its own merit, as it should

My big question about the new LCA trip pulls is who is going to monitor this and make sure they do not pull more trips than allowed(especially after the 25th of current month going thru the end of the next month)? I think I know the answer. Nobody. Also, I wonder how many LCA will trade their current trip to pick up a trip in open time for IOE. You know the company will be strongly encouraging them to do this.

What stops that under the current contract?

More than likely the union will monitor the trip pull. As far as the LCA trade you mention, I don't get your point. Isn't that like a swap with the pot? There would still be a trip in open time in your scenario. Albeit a different one.

Denny

I get a sense that the union monitors a lot of stuff, but it's individual pilots who consistently detect contractual violations. It would be nice for all users to have visibility into the IOE/TOE bucket of trips as they flow in and out of open time.

There is a added feature that allows you to track anybtrip from creation to flight in DBMS. In addition the trips would show up in daily trip coverage.

So don't take offense, Mr/Ms TAprocon, but...
This looks like a bit of a sales job. You mention 23.m.4 and then present a really nice looking powerpoint-esque slide, complete with sarcasm (forget already?)...yet you fail to explain HOW this change can be used.

If somebody was new to the company, and had no experience with this OE trip pull game, it might look to them like under the current contract, the company can pull ANY trip on the 25th. With the proposal at hand, they can only pull a very specific type of trip, but they can do that each PCS cycle (i.e. 4x per day). No big deal, right? At least that's what your really swanky chart seems to indicate.

Soooo, should we explain how the PCS cycle can make it more difficult under this TA than under the current contract to catch trips in open time before they're pulled, or should we just let everyone figure it out themselves by reading between your flowcharts and snark?

Don't get me wrong...I think we deserve to know all the facts.
If you present yourself as an unbiased source, make sure you explain how this change affects us. Most of us are smart enough to know that the company doesn't ask for changes to status quo unless it benefits them. This item obviously does WRT the training cycle. Goody goody for them. But it also affects a lot of pilots who are currently able to make a better living off the rules that stand today.

Just saying.

I have to agree with this part. I think this will be something that's very easy to keep track of.

I disagree. The company would have to tell the union which trips were used for IOE, otherwise it would be very difficult to track especially if it doesn't show in the daily trip coverage that a trip was removed for IOE. The company can pull LCA from reserve and give them an IOE trip. May be a real good deal for junior LCA to bid reserve then get all their trips assigned for IOE as the month progresses(which could technically violate seniority among other reserve pilots).

Unlike almost any other airline DALPA has direct access to the companies computers for scheduling at the same level a supervisor has. They can see and track anything that crew scheds does.

What Sailing said, plus OE trips are coded all over the place, as are the pilots receiving them. It will be very easy to track by DALPA. Not to mention 13,500 pilots scouring open time all the time and wondering where trips went.

This is certainly a nominal concession from current book, but it appears its a minor one and WAY better than the original 2015 language.