Endeavor Bonus to Pay Rates Discussion
12-24-2016, 03:36 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: CA CRJ900
Posts: 324
Endeavor Bonus to Pay Rates Discussion
I thought it would be good to have a thread dedicated to this all-important topic.
Endeavor is in the beginning stages of getting the retention bonus that expires at the end of 2018 converted into pay rates. The pilots want and should expect that the bonus be converted to a pay rate that does not cause a single pilot to take a pay cut ie pilots on reserve or bidding for minimum credit will make the same or more under a change from bonus to pay rates.
Both sides have their reasons for wanting what they want. My thought is that no one should take a pay cut and that the pilots should actually find a way to increase the pay rates over just converting the bonus into a 75 higher pay rate, which would be a $25.56 hourly increase across the board.
Currently, the company pays 150% for any open time picked up in excess of awarded line and also pays 150% for hours over 85 credit. I can see how the company is concerned about increasing pay by $25.56 per hour with this 150% open time LOA. This is a great tool for pilots that want to work extra to make more money. It is actually a hindrance to pilots wanting to drop trips as why would someone pick up a trip at 100% when they can pick one up at 150%.
Reserve – the pilots have an issue with the company to be what appears as manipulation of the reserve grid. It is almost always 100% red, which prevents dropping of reserve days and trips by those that need more time off.
I see a possible solution that will help a both parties or at least make the company pay for not accurately setting reserve levels. The pilots should agree to drop the blanket 150% open time and change the agreement to similary match other airlines and make open time 150% whenever one of the days of trip is in the red or critical zone. The hope is that the company would set accurate reserve levels thus allowing pilots to drop trips and/or reserve days and allow the company to pay a fair rate for picking up open time. Open time that can be covered by reserves should only be paid at 100% and when reserve levels are critical open time could become 150% or greater depending on how low the reserves levels are. I will leave the exact numbers to the bean counters.
Bottom line is lets get $25.56 per hour as a minimum increase and a extra hourly increase for all that gets first year FO pay to $65,000 (at 75 hours/month) or greater while agreeing to give the company some things in return such as the above Open time suggestion, NYC co-domicile, initial freeze for first officers for a period of time, dual qualified if a majority of the cost savings is passed on to the pilot group and a requirement that everyone wears the hat on TY’s birthday.
I have not read the contract in regards to new domiciles opening and new aircraft type entering the system. I think we should remove any seat lock or freezes when either one of these items happens. Every pilot on property should have the opportunity to hold a new base or new aircraft.
I look forward to everyone’s posts.
Endeavor is in the beginning stages of getting the retention bonus that expires at the end of 2018 converted into pay rates. The pilots want and should expect that the bonus be converted to a pay rate that does not cause a single pilot to take a pay cut ie pilots on reserve or bidding for minimum credit will make the same or more under a change from bonus to pay rates.
Both sides have their reasons for wanting what they want. My thought is that no one should take a pay cut and that the pilots should actually find a way to increase the pay rates over just converting the bonus into a 75 higher pay rate, which would be a $25.56 hourly increase across the board.
Currently, the company pays 150% for any open time picked up in excess of awarded line and also pays 150% for hours over 85 credit. I can see how the company is concerned about increasing pay by $25.56 per hour with this 150% open time LOA. This is a great tool for pilots that want to work extra to make more money. It is actually a hindrance to pilots wanting to drop trips as why would someone pick up a trip at 100% when they can pick one up at 150%.
Reserve – the pilots have an issue with the company to be what appears as manipulation of the reserve grid. It is almost always 100% red, which prevents dropping of reserve days and trips by those that need more time off.
I see a possible solution that will help a both parties or at least make the company pay for not accurately setting reserve levels. The pilots should agree to drop the blanket 150% open time and change the agreement to similary match other airlines and make open time 150% whenever one of the days of trip is in the red or critical zone. The hope is that the company would set accurate reserve levels thus allowing pilots to drop trips and/or reserve days and allow the company to pay a fair rate for picking up open time. Open time that can be covered by reserves should only be paid at 100% and when reserve levels are critical open time could become 150% or greater depending on how low the reserves levels are. I will leave the exact numbers to the bean counters.
Bottom line is lets get $25.56 per hour as a minimum increase and a extra hourly increase for all that gets first year FO pay to $65,000 (at 75 hours/month) or greater while agreeing to give the company some things in return such as the above Open time suggestion, NYC co-domicile, initial freeze for first officers for a period of time, dual qualified if a majority of the cost savings is passed on to the pilot group and a requirement that everyone wears the hat on TY’s birthday.
I have not read the contract in regards to new domiciles opening and new aircraft type entering the system. I think we should remove any seat lock or freezes when either one of these items happens. Every pilot on property should have the opportunity to hold a new base or new aircraft.
I look forward to everyone’s posts.
12-24-2016, 04:21 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: CA CRJ900
Posts: 324
A couple more thoughts after leaving my thinking room.
1. Obviously this time of year flying slows down and the opportunity to even credit more than 75 hours has not been seen by some bases in Dec. Just take a look at the lines in Nov, Dec and Jan. It is hard to find anyone at or greater than 80 hours. If the bonus is rolled into pay rates at 85 credit hours what happens when we are properly staffed and it is hard to get 85 in the busy months much less the slow months. Pay decrease for every pilot is what happens and more profit for Delta.
2. Lets make an assumption. Delta management would not sign a contract with its pilot group that it did not believe was profitable. So taking that assumption, the 900 pay rates on the Delta pay scale must be profitable.
So now it is time for us to take a stand and demand to be paid for the aircraft we are flying. If the pay works for Delta pilots and Delta management then it should work for all pilots flying a 900. They do not change the ticket prices based on who is flying the 900. Using the pay scale on APC which I do not if it is correct or not so adjust the numbers according based on the contract. I am going to use first year FO pay for the numbers but the rule applies across all pay rates.
83/hr for first year FO on the 900 a 76 passenger airplane which equals $1.09 per seat. I know this is not a perfect assumption because there is no extra revenue for first class on a 200 but they are going away anyway. 50/76 = 66%. Sixty-six % of 1.09 = $.72 per seat.
Current Endeavor Fleet on APC
81 – 900 81*1.09= 88.46
51 – 200 51*.72= 36.72
88.46+36.72=125.18
125.18/2=62.59 blended rate
This number will go down slightly for each 200 we take on but as they retire the number will go up. We might could even argue to increase the 200 rate to only account for half of the 200s since we are helping Delta by taking them and should not be greatly penalized. Yes it does provide quick upgrade for some but what the pilots that are already upgraded or the ones that choose to not upgrade.
Our pay scale should reflect Detla’s pay scale, maybe we do not get all the extras they get in retirement, sick time, days off etc, but we should be paid the same for flying the same aircraft.
If we do not unite and stand now we may never have the chance again.
1. Obviously this time of year flying slows down and the opportunity to even credit more than 75 hours has not been seen by some bases in Dec. Just take a look at the lines in Nov, Dec and Jan. It is hard to find anyone at or greater than 80 hours. If the bonus is rolled into pay rates at 85 credit hours what happens when we are properly staffed and it is hard to get 85 in the busy months much less the slow months. Pay decrease for every pilot is what happens and more profit for Delta.
2. Lets make an assumption. Delta management would not sign a contract with its pilot group that it did not believe was profitable. So taking that assumption, the 900 pay rates on the Delta pay scale must be profitable.
So now it is time for us to take a stand and demand to be paid for the aircraft we are flying. If the pay works for Delta pilots and Delta management then it should work for all pilots flying a 900. They do not change the ticket prices based on who is flying the 900. Using the pay scale on APC which I do not if it is correct or not so adjust the numbers according based on the contract. I am going to use first year FO pay for the numbers but the rule applies across all pay rates.
83/hr for first year FO on the 900 a 76 passenger airplane which equals $1.09 per seat. I know this is not a perfect assumption because there is no extra revenue for first class on a 200 but they are going away anyway. 50/76 = 66%. Sixty-six % of 1.09 = $.72 per seat.
Current Endeavor Fleet on APC
81 – 900 81*1.09= 88.46
51 – 200 51*.72= 36.72
88.46+36.72=125.18
125.18/2=62.59 blended rate
This number will go down slightly for each 200 we take on but as they retire the number will go up. We might could even argue to increase the 200 rate to only account for half of the 200s since we are helping Delta by taking them and should not be greatly penalized. Yes it does provide quick upgrade for some but what the pilots that are already upgraded or the ones that choose to not upgrade.
Our pay scale should reflect Detla’s pay scale, maybe we do not get all the extras they get in retirement, sick time, days off etc, but we should be paid the same for flying the same aircraft.
If we do not unite and stand now we may never have the chance again.
12-24-2016, 04:24 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: CA CRJ900
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Dude Abides
"hope the company will....."
Anything after that phrase might as well be used as Toilet Paper.
You a funny guy. Funny like a clown. You amuse me.
Respect to Pesci
Anything after that phrase might as well be used as Toilet Paper.
You a funny guy. Funny like a clown. You amuse me.
Respect to Pesci
Value yourself and your fellow pilot group!
12-24-2016, 04:25 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: CA CRJ900
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Dude Abides
"hope the company will....."
Anything after that phrase might as well be used as Toilet Paper.
You a funny guy. Funny like a clown. You amuse me.
Respect to Pesci
Anything after that phrase might as well be used as Toilet Paper.
You a funny guy. Funny like a clown. You amuse me.
Respect to Pesci
Originally Posted by msprj2
So you want first year FO rates
At $73/HR? Not going to happen.
It's cheaper to pay open time at 1.5 than hire another pilot.
Add $20/HR or more to pay. 401k to match 100%.
More vac/sick time
At $73/HR? Not going to happen.
It's cheaper to pay open time at 1.5 than hire another pilot.
Add $20/HR or more to pay. 401k to match 100%.
More vac/sick time
12-24-2016, 04:54 AM
#8
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,291
Originally Posted by 4myfamily
I thought it would be good to have a thread dedicated to this all-important topic.
Endeavor is in the beginning stages of getting the retention bonus that expires at the end of 2018 converted into pay rates. The pilots want and should expect that the bonus be converted to a pay rate that does not cause a single pilot to take a pay cut ie pilots on reserve or bidding for minimum credit will make the same or more under a change from bonus to pay rates.
Both sides have their reasons for wanting what they want. My thought is that no one should take a pay cut and that the pilots should actually find a way to increase the pay rates over just converting the bonus into a 75 higher pay rate, which would be a $25.56 hourly increase across the board.
Currently, the company pays 150% for any open time picked up in excess of awarded line and also pays 150% for hours over 85 credit. I can see how the company is concerned about increasing pay by $25.56 per hour with this 150% open time LOA. This is a great tool for pilots that want to work extra to make more money. It is actually a hindrance to pilots wanting to drop trips as why would someone pick up a trip at 100% when they can pick one up at 150%.
Reserve – the pilots have an issue with the company to be what appears as manipulation of the reserve grid. It is almost always 100% red, which prevents dropping of reserve days and trips by those that need more time off.
I see a possible solution that will help a both parties or at least make the company pay for not accurately setting reserve levels. The pilots should agree to drop the blanket 150% open time and change the agreement to similary match other airlines and make open time 150% whenever one of the days of trip is in the red or critical zone. The hope is that the company would set accurate reserve levels thus allowing pilots to drop trips and/or reserve days and allow the company to pay a fair rate for picking up open time. Open time that can be covered by reserves should only be paid at 100% and when reserve levels are critical open time could become 150% or greater depending on how low the reserves levels are. I will leave the exact numbers to the bean counters.
Bottom line is lets get $25.56 per hour as a minimum increase and a extra hourly increase for all that gets first year FO pay to $65,000 (at 75 hours/month) or greater while agreeing to give the company some things in return such as the above Open time suggestion, NYC co-domicile, initial freeze for first officers for a period of time, dual qualified if a majority of the cost savings is passed on to the pilot group and a requirement that everyone wears the hat on TY’s birthday.
I have not read the contract in regards to new domiciles opening and new aircraft type entering the system. I think we should remove any seat lock or freezes when either one of these items happens. Every pilot on property should have the opportunity to hold a new base or new aircraft.
I look forward to everyone’s posts.
Endeavor is in the beginning stages of getting the retention bonus that expires at the end of 2018 converted into pay rates. The pilots want and should expect that the bonus be converted to a pay rate that does not cause a single pilot to take a pay cut ie pilots on reserve or bidding for minimum credit will make the same or more under a change from bonus to pay rates.
Both sides have their reasons for wanting what they want. My thought is that no one should take a pay cut and that the pilots should actually find a way to increase the pay rates over just converting the bonus into a 75 higher pay rate, which would be a $25.56 hourly increase across the board.
Currently, the company pays 150% for any open time picked up in excess of awarded line and also pays 150% for hours over 85 credit. I can see how the company is concerned about increasing pay by $25.56 per hour with this 150% open time LOA. This is a great tool for pilots that want to work extra to make more money. It is actually a hindrance to pilots wanting to drop trips as why would someone pick up a trip at 100% when they can pick one up at 150%.
Reserve – the pilots have an issue with the company to be what appears as manipulation of the reserve grid. It is almost always 100% red, which prevents dropping of reserve days and trips by those that need more time off.
I see a possible solution that will help a both parties or at least make the company pay for not accurately setting reserve levels. The pilots should agree to drop the blanket 150% open time and change the agreement to similary match other airlines and make open time 150% whenever one of the days of trip is in the red or critical zone. The hope is that the company would set accurate reserve levels thus allowing pilots to drop trips and/or reserve days and allow the company to pay a fair rate for picking up open time. Open time that can be covered by reserves should only be paid at 100% and when reserve levels are critical open time could become 150% or greater depending on how low the reserves levels are. I will leave the exact numbers to the bean counters.
Bottom line is lets get $25.56 per hour as a minimum increase and a extra hourly increase for all that gets first year FO pay to $65,000 (at 75 hours/month) or greater while agreeing to give the company some things in return such as the above Open time suggestion, NYC co-domicile, initial freeze for first officers for a period of time, dual qualified if a majority of the cost savings is passed on to the pilot group and a requirement that everyone wears the hat on TY’s birthday.
I have not read the contract in regards to new domiciles opening and new aircraft type entering the system. I think we should remove any seat lock or freezes when either one of these items happens. Every pilot on property should have the opportunity to hold a new base or new aircraft.
I look forward to everyone’s posts.
You had to start another one??
12-24-2016, 05:01 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 505
This has already been discussed six ways to Sunday in the Endeavor thread. Why do we need to keep bringing it up? Email your rep and tell them what you want to see. If they don't get this then you can't do anything about it anyway.
12-24-2016, 05:21 AM
#10
spin 2
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: the big one
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by 4myfamily
We will never get anywhere when all of us do not realize what we are worth. Throw away the old thinking of being scabs and demand to get paid what you are worth. Who would fly our planes if Delta shut us down? No one right now has the pilots to take on our aircraft - yes they could give us a slow death but how would that impact customer service.
Value yourself and your fellow pilot group!
Value yourself and your fellow pilot group!
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